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The Art of Dying

By Gregon

Skeptiko is currently featuring an excellent hour-long podcast interview with Dr Peter Fenwick, one of the leaders in research into the possibility of the conscious survival of death. Skeptiko’s Alex Tsakiris asks some great questions, and Dr Fenwick provides plenty of information in a calm and rational manner – covering everything from Near Death Experiences (NDEs) to death-bed phenomena and his own recent book, The Art of Dying (Amazon US and UK). Dr Fenwick is a part of the very exciting AWARE project, which aims to study the brain and consciousness during the dying process.

If you want to discuss (or read discussions about) the topics covered, you can also head to the Skeptiko section of the Mind-Energy Forums. I recommend this podcast interview wholeheartedly – one of the best I’ve listened to for a long while.

Previously on TDG:

Greg
Editor
Greg is the owner-editor of The Daily Grail, as well as the author of a number of books including Stop Worrying, There Probably is an Afterlife.
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12 Comments

  1. Fear of death
    From what I’ve read and heard, Dr Fenwick and the AWARE project are scientifically studying consciousness and death. Dr Fenwick should be supported by the scientific community, and his methods can’t be criticised. What do the skeptics have to fear? The skeptics are saying, “you can’t study death! We know nothing happens when you die, you won’t find anything, so stop it!”

    Go go go, Dr Fenwick.

    1. not necessarily
      Even if you are sceptical about NDEs being reports from afterdeath, it is still very interesting what happens during death.

      Suppose these kinds of studies find out that the reported effects take place just before brain death, and/or during the period when the brain comes back from some sort of standstill.

      That would be quite interesting in itself, it would reveal much about the functioning of the brain.

      On the other hand it would probably know sway a lot of the believers, who already know that these reports are from the next world.

      —-
      It is not how fast you go
      it is when you get there.

      1. Before – after
        Hi Earthling.

        There has been at least one recorded event where a woman described events that happened after her brain waves were non-existant. She had to undergo surgery that required her brain to be temporarily put to death, so her whole system was being monitored as the surgery was being done.

        When she came back, she related things she heard and saw that had to have happened while her brainscan was showing flat.

        1. braindead
          I have doubts about a report like that.
          Mainly because I don’t believe medicine today knows how to temporarily put a brain to death. Put a brain in a coma yes, but that is not death as far as we know.

          The brainscan showing flat doesn’t mean the brain is dead. It doesn’t even mean that there was no electrical brain activity – just that there wasn’t the activity that the measurement devices look for.

          Plus, memory pays tricks on you. When we remember seeing something this does not mean we saw it. Even more so for hearing, or saying something. Witness reports are notoriously unreliable, so these reports are not very good evidence of if something was observed, and even less so when something was observed by the patient.

          —-
          It is not how fast you go
          it is when you get there.

          1. Defining Death
            [quote=earthling]The brainscan showing flat doesn’t mean the brain is dead. It doesn’t even mean that there was no electrical brain activity – just that there wasn’t the activity that the measurement devices look for.[/quote]

            This is actually one of the key points made in the podcast – that defining ‘death’ is not easy, and it seems possible (going by the evidence) that consciousness persists even after brainwave readings are at zero.

            Another reason the podcast is worth listening to!

            Kind regards,
            Greg
            ——————————————-
            You monkeys only think you’re running things

          3. indeed
            Indeed our justice systems convict innocent people due to honest mistakes by eyewitnesses.

            Apart from that, our sense of duration and of synchronicity is very unreliable. In waking life events that happen less than 2 seconds apart are often perceived as happening at the same time. The perceived duration of a dream is completely unrelated to the physical duration of a dream.

            And this is when the brain is healthy.

            I would not expect these shortcomings to go away in a brain that is severely reduced in function, to the point where we can’t tell if the brain is alive or dead.

            For precisely these reasons, along with the witness reports, it is very interesting to look at these things seriously.

            So far we mainly have 2 points of view:

            – this is clear evidence of another world,
            – this is not happening, because it can’t happen

            Seems to me there is good reason to believe that both views are too simplistic. We should look closely at what is really happening.

            —-
            It is not how fast you go
            it is when you get there.

      2. What happens “when” you die
        For me the most important aspect of the NDE phenomenon is not what happens after you die but what takes place in the final microseconds of life. In my opinion this is where we may find answers to the mysteries of consciousness and even possibly the underlaying nature of reality.

        I propose a theory that I term “Cheating The Ferryman”. I suggest that a known neurological phenomenon called “the glutamate flood” brings about some fascinating changes in subjective perception and in doing so may facilitate a most amazing series of events.

        CTF suggests that as the person approaches death this neurotransmitter (glutamate) brings about a subjective slowing down of time. This is similar to the reports made by people in car crashes or in times of great stress who state that time seemed to slow down. I then suggest that this time dilation can be days, months, years, or even a lifetime as far as the dying person is concerned.

        Many of you interested in the NDE experience will recall that one regularly reported sensation is that “my life flashed before my eyes”. This is during an NDE – a “Near” Death Experience. I propose that in a “Real” Death Experience (RDE) that life does not flash by at all but runs in a literal minute by minute re-living of ones life. This is like living within a super-sensurround virtual-reality recording of one’s life – an experience that is so real that the dying person feels that it is real. It is as if they are living in an inner-generated world similar to that in movies such as “The Matrix” and “Vanilla Sky”.

        I call this virtual-reality world “The Bohmian IMAX”.

        On first encountering this theory it may sound totally crazy but believe me the science seems to work. This theory is also generating a lot of interest world-wide. For example Dr. Fenwick has attended one of my lectures and he and I discussed it a length afterwards.

        If anybody is interested in the details behind this theory simply log onto my website (www.anthonypeake.com) This has some downloadable articles that explain CTF in greater detail. I also have a very active FORUM on this site.

        I am very impressed with this site which was pointed out to me by one of my Canadian FORUM members. I think that we have a lot in common and I am hopeful for a good deal of cross-fertilisation of ideas.

        I am keen to discuss things with the owners of this site so please, if you have read this contribution please drop me an email at cheattheferryman@aol.com

        1. Could this be what our lives are at this moment?
          I find the whole concept you propose to be a fascinating possibility, however, if you are right, then when the person’s whole life goes in front of them as a virtual reality format, who is to say that the life we are living now is not just that, a virtual reality simulation which we go over again, but because it appears so real we wouuld be “living” it as if we were still alive! This would be a scary but interesting idea.

          I have never liked the idea of virtual reality computer programmes because it would become impossible in the end to know what was “real” and what wasn’t.

          So it would be under this concept.

          Is what I am living now, the real life, or the virtual reality version which you say would feel “real” to the person.

          When does this stop? If ever?

          Carol A Noble

  2. When are people dead?
    It is becoming more and more obvious that no-one can guarantee a person is dead even though the machines tells them this is so. Recently a man was in a coma, and he was considered to be brain dead. However, when they switched off the machines he suddenly started to create tears and soon after was alive and well!

    Because of this uncertainty about death Japan has banned the use of organs for transplants. This is because the organ has to be taken whilst the tissue is still “alive” and if they waited until they were sure the person was dead by other means the tissue would be dead to and use for transplant.

    It is also now known that some people who have been given transplants find their personality and like and dislikes changing, which they later learn have become like those of the organ donor. Often the changes are dramatic especially if the donor and receiver are of different sexes, ages, or cultures.

    Death is a strange subject, and one we will always have trouble discerning.

    I would add that I found the headline for this to inappropriate. The art of dying is something we do every day of our lives. The art of death only happens once in our lives!

    I remember my dad saying that he found the idea of death to be quite easy to accept it was the dying, and the pain and discomfort associated with that, he found hard to tolerate. He died of heart disease, having been given 10 years to live and managing 15 years. In the end the death was quick and painless.

    Carol A Noble

  3. Response to Carol A Noble
    Carol,

    Thanks for your comments.

    I would like to try and answer your questions as best I can in as short a space as possible.

    Q: who is to say that the life we are living now is not just that, a virtual reality simulation which we go over again, but because it appears so real we would be “living” it as if we were still alive! This would be a scary but interesting idea.

    A: Exactly. You will recall that in the movies “The Matrix” and “Vanilla Sky” the characters cannot tell reality from illusion. And how could they? Indeed how is it that we rarely ever realise that we are dreaming? It is because if it seems real it is.

    Q:Is what I am living now, the real life, or the virtual reality version which you say would feel “real” to the person.

    A: When I do lectures this question regularly comes up from people who have not read any of my work. I think a possible clue is the answer to the question “Do you experience deja vu sensations?” If the answer is yes then I suggest that you are living inside the illusion (something I call “The Bohmian IMAX”). Approx 70% of people experience deja vu and 30% do not. The reason why I suggest this is because a deja vu is a “memory” of your past life … the one where all the memories were recorded.

    Q:When does this stop? If ever?

    A: Another excellent question. My straight answer is I do not know. I would like to believe that after many life-re-runs we are “allowed” to move on – rather like Phil Conners does in the movie “Groundhog Day”. However I have yet to find any strong scientific evidence to support this (although I am working on a possible way out of this with an associate).

    You may wish to check out the following interview on YouTube. It may help in clarifying some of the points above:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skLmKGqXWG0

    Best Wishes

    Tony

    1. Tony I have watched the YouTube video
      And I found it interesting.

      I admit, I have often wondered if we were just living in a virtual reality world. The matrix, and the Thirteenth Floor were both very good films which tried to explain this sort of idea. I also enjoyed Groundhog Day, and 12.01, which pursued the possibility of repeating an event/day. Even Supernatural had one episode which did this as I saw on a DVD. I also remember an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation had something similar where Data managed to break the loop by placing the number 3 in the repeating period.

      I have not had NDE but have had similar experiences where I was an awareness self in a black space I call limbo. I once even managed to what I term, “change the outcome of an event by stopping time”. I even had dreams whereby I saw a figure of light whom I have always considered to be Jesus. My dreams are more vivid than my real life sometimes and I have mentioned a couple of dreams on this board.

      The past decade has passed extremely quickly and I do wonder if I have actually experienced it or not.

      I do know I am about to embark on a new life, in as much when I retire on Wednesday, when I am 60, we will be pushing to move home to a different area, and live a different lifestyle, trying to ignore society as much as possible, and live our own sort of bohemian lifestyle if possible. A place has been found, it is now just up to us to ensure we get the place, and move safely.

      We are both looking forward to this new life, in a new place, without the need to pursue a working career, as some people used to do in the past because they had an allowance/income supplied automatically to them.

      How much of this is a repeat I wonder? Certainly, I look in the mirror and wonder how I could be so fat, so old, and still feel young inside. The person I see in the mirror doesn’t seem to be me yet I know it is. Where did the years go?

      So many strange things have happened in my life, perhaps it is just a form of repeat of my life, the illusion of living! Or perhaps not. I love the idea, Tony, I just don’t know if I can accept it.

      I do have the idea of a russian doll universe, where each universe is finite but perfectly proportioned inside each one. My body is but a “universe” inside this greater one. Truth is, no-one knows the truth, or can know the truth, and if we do keep repeating as you suggest then I can honestly say I don’t want to repeat this again. I wouldn’t change anything but I don’t want to go through it again. I could face it emotionally.

      Thanks again Tony. You have made me see things in a different way.

      You looked very good on that YouTube clip too.

      Carol A Noble

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