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News Briefs 14-07-2009

By Jameskeon

2+2 makes 5 even when 4 is staring you in the face.

  • Is floating the last best hope for liberty?
  • Ancient runaway global warming still a mystery.
  • Girl’s heart heals itself after transplant.
  • Study suggests oceans on ancient Venus.
  • Ancient fortress city unearthed in Egypt.
  • How chaos drives the brain.
  • The invisible hand trumped by Darwin?
  • Transgender mummy discovered in museum collection.
  • Unholy Grail Nazi chalice revealed in fraud case
  • Amphibians mate under a full moon.
  • The great worm of Avebury.
  • Gigantic orange sphere hovers over man causing missing time.
  • How old are the stars?
  • The smoking gun?
  • Time-series photos of death of the Aral Sea.

Quote of the Day:

We simply must do everything we can in our power to slow down global warming before it is too late. The science is clear.The global warming debate is over.

Arnold Schwarzeneggar

The solution?

Get to the chopper

Arnold Schwarzeneggar

Jameske
Related

25 Comments

  1. Coment on “The smoking gun?”
    Wow! Richard Hoagland does it again!

    His latest detective work uncovered another mind-blower!

    I wish those creatures at NASA (or in the Government, or elsewhere) who are trying to prevent the release of this information to the human race, and would prefer to see it destroyed rather than allow it to be released, would go off somewhere and quietly die.

    IMO, Low-life/trash doesn’t even begin to describe the distorted individuals that feel they have a right to keep this information, acquired through our tax dollars, from the American people, and the human race in general.

    Way to go TDG for posting this link! (This is why I check TDG every day!)

  2. Is floating the last best hope for liberty?
    Answer: not likely.

    I remember reading another article about this Seasteading Institute over at Wired some months ago. The ideas being thrown were kind of ridiculous actually; the people being lured to this kind of “utopia” were wealthy geeks who wanted to be free to do stuff that’s illegal in most countries —and not just the usual consumption of recreational opiates, but also:

    [quote]”Bazooka bikini bachelor parties,” he says. “You get there and a Lithuanian model hands you a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.”)[/quote]

    Not only that, but they also were considering other *interesting* sorts of revenue for their Seasteading nations, like

    [quote]Friedman notes that some enterprises—like euthanasia clinics—would incense local authorities, but almost all the ideas attendees come up with would capitalize on activities that skirt existing laws and regulations: Fish farming and aquaculture. Prisons. Med schools. Gold warehouses. Brothels. Cryonics intakes. Gene therapy, cloning, augmentation, and organ sales. Baby farms. Deafeningly loud concerts. Rehab/detox clinics. Zen retreats. Abortion clinics. Ultimate ultimate fighting tournaments.[/quote]

    Ultimate ultimate fighting tournament? That sounds a lot like old style Roman Gladiator games. Hail Cesar! What about sex slavery as well?

    The very first problem of course, is that NO human settlement is completely self-sufficient. Even future space colonies will need supplies from time to time from elsewhere. So eventually these new floating free countries will have to dock in some country’s port; ditto if some of the “free citizens” get seriously hurt in one of their extreme activities —remember that guy who gets bitten by a shark in Leo DiCaprio’s The Beach?

    Another thing to consider is that these sort of schemes would not only attract liberal intellectuals with a lot of cash, but also —shall we say— people with alternative business enterprises who would see a lot of advantages in not having the eyes of the law behind their back. Would the new nations be willing to give immunity to people labeled as criminals (or terrorists) by other nations?

    And even if that doesn’t happen, there’s always the external threat to consider. What happens if one of this floating cities gets hijacked by Somali pirates? Yes, they talk that “sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles like the Chinese Silkworm are fairly cheap and quite effective”, but any plan looks good on paper.

    Sorry, but I can easily envision how these idyllic Utopias could quickly become horror shows —I played Bioshock.

    Bottom-line: You are never going to have perfect societies, unless you first have perfect citizens.

    —–
    It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
    It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

    Red Pill Junkie

    1. i didnt get the impression
      i didnt get the impression that self-sufficiency was important. only that liberty from governments was. and that does not mean that laws and rules wont form, but just that they will be minimal and thus correspond to something of a libertarian way of life. the free state project is trying something on land along similar lines – grouping libertarians together in one place to form a society that can influence the development of new hampshire – if they get enough people, even secede from the union to form an independent libertarian state.

      I dont think libertarians believe in utopia – they believe that their way of life would be better than the rule of big government.

      “Another thing to consider is that these sort of schemes would not only attract liberal intellectuals with a lot of cash, but also —shall we say— people with alternative business enterprises who would see a lot of advantages in not having the eyes of the law behind their back.”

      The eyes of what law? For example in the reason article, rather than have people travel thousands of miles for medical treatments that are banned in their own countries, they can travel a few miles to get those medical treatments, making those banned treatments more accessable and affordable. Perhaps Rick Simpson should live just a little offshore?

      “Would the new nations be willing to give immunity to people labeled as criminals (or terrorists) by other nations?”

      That happens already. But most news stories dont refer to Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, George Bush as terrorists, for example. Henry Kissinger would be another example.

      Presumably the new libertarian nations would choose the principle to be a friend to all nations and an enemy of none. So, it might be that an alleged terrorist could live in the new nation, but that countries wanting that alleged terrorist could make a good case for that persons guilt and submit all the necessary evidence that the new nation requires for a trial to take place. If convicted that alleged terrorist could then be removed from the new nation to be tried in the country that wanted him for crimes. But say it was a harmless issue like income tax evasion – such a new libertarian nation probably would not have income tax on grounds that it is a form of slavery and thus would not sanction the deportation of someone wanted for such a crime.

      and the ultimate fighting tournament sounds like a good idea but presumably will be voluntary to enter rather than forced like roman gladiators were.

      1. Being done already
        [quote]I dont think libertarians believe in utopia – they believe that their way of life would be better than the rule of big government.[/quote]

        I was under the impression that the Puritans sailed on the Mayflower for exactly the same reasons some 200 years ago.

        In the end, all those better forms of life get too complicated because you need rules in order to organize large groups of people.

        Granted, these Seasteading projects are not supposed to grow as large as a land-based nation. But it’s difficult to find a social cell of any size where some form of regulation is not imposed.

        I’ll tell you MY ideal form of government: a nation where I’m supreme dictator, and the rest of the citizens obey my every whim. Who wants to sign up? Come on, one at a time you guys! 😛

        [quote]The eyes of what law? For example in the reason article, rather than have people travel thousands of miles for medical treatments that are banned in their own countries, they can travel a few miles to get those medical treatments, making those banned treatments more accessable and affordable. Perhaps Rick Simpson should live just a little offshore?[/quote]

        They were also discussing clinics for organ transplants. I guess one of the things you would need to agree is NOT to ask where the organ came from. Or HOW it was harvested.

        [quote]So, it might be that an alleged terrorist could live in the new nation, but that countries wanting that alleged terrorist could make a good case for that persons guilt and submit all the necessary evidence that the new nation requires for a trial to take place. If convicted that alleged terrorist could then be removed from the new nation to be tried in the country that wanted him for crimes.[/quote]

        Oh, so they WOULD have a need for courts and a legal system, then.

        I don’t know. It’s just that this Friedman fellow seems so eager in creating his utopic “free” nations, that he seems like an arms dealer: “Hey, I don’t know how my inventions are going to be used, and frankly I don’t want to know. I only know they’re gonna be awesome!”. Riiiight.

        As long as you fail in fixing that which has corrupted every political and social-organizing system, you’re bound to repeat the same mistakes again and again. The only difference is that these guys seek to be the alpha dogs of their new societies. Good for them; but, as something I learned from playing Bioshock: “in a society of artists and intellectuals, nobody wants to be the one who has to clean the toilets”.

        [quote]and the ultimate fighting tournament sounds like a good idea but presumably will be voluntary to enter rather than forced like roman gladiators were.[/quote]

        And how would they know if it was freely volunteered? You would need some form of contract, validated by some court of law.

        Sorry, but until we invent a race of ray-shooting robots like Gort, we’re stuck with laws, courts and *ugh!* lawyers 😉

        All these ideas reminds me of the reason many people decide to take a sabbatical to visit Europe or Tibet. They seek to break with everything they loathe about their daily routine; some might even decide to move out, change to another city, another country, another continent. The problem is: where you go, there you are. No matter how far you try to escape, you’ll always carry your baggage of defects with you.

        —–
        It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
        It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

        Red Pill Junkie

        1. It really depends on how
          It really depends on how much you care about liberty. But there is no problem with law and courts in a libertarian society. And there is already arms dealing in the societies we currently live in so i see no problem with it being in a floating nation either. And if the libertarian floating nation ends up fascist after years of brothels and anything goes fighting, the people that dont like it will leave and go somewhere else, or use their justice system to imprison or deport the fascists that have violated their libertarian constitution.

          I find it interesting to note that there is an assumption that these floating libertarian nations must last forever. Should any nation last forever? The issue really is, will you have a better life or not. If you think you will then join, if you think you wont then dont. If you discover you dont like it after being a part of it, leave. If you like it then stay.

          And if no one in the libertarian floating nation wants to clean the toilets then there is an opportunity for someone to join that nation to make a lot of money doing it.

          1. Suppose you can’t
            [quote]And if the libertarian floating nation ends up fascist after years of brothels and anything goes fighting, the people that dont like it will leave and go somewhere else, or use their justice system to imprison or deport the fascists that have violated their libertarian constitution.[/quote]

            Suppose you’re not allowed to leave. Suppose the person who wants to leave is the platform’s doctor; how many scientists in Eastern blocks were not allowed to travel, for fear that they would defect.

            [quote]Should any nation last forever?[/quote]

            Hmmm. That’s a very good point. Nations endure for many reasons; one of them because there are resources available that permit their continuity. As long as there are resources, there would be some form of social organization around them.

            [quote]And if no one in the libertarian floating nation wants to clean the toilets then there is an opportunity for someone to join that nation to make a lot of money doing it.[/quote]

            Indeed. Quite a very lucrative opportunity for racketeering 😉

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          2. suppose they are not allowed
            suppose they are not allowed to leave? well, then we are already in the fascist dictatorship phase of the supposed libertarian colony. confiscation of privately held guns would precede that, and at that point unless a big government had already built up its power that would be a classic sign for a libertarian revolution!

            besides, dont you know the solution to everything is “Get to the chopper!”

          3. Chopper
            LOL, and who gets to keep its keys again? 😛

            You know I’m not trying to be a stubborn arse here right —well, not consciously anyway. I’m merely expressing my opinnions of why I think this plan is not going to work. does that mean I’m totally against it and would try to block their attempts? of course not.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

      2. liberty at sea
        To start, I have string libertarian tendencies, for those people who have not noticed. Therefore I can say honestly that I feel what those guys are after. It would be great to have some more independence, and less silly constraints imposed on normal people.

        On the other hand I can see two serious problems with the floating island approach.

        The first one, short term and relatively harmless, is physical stuff, storms and such.

        Conditions beyond the 200 mile economic interest zones can be harsh. The water is deep, otherwise some country claims it as continental shelf. So no breakwaters, you can’t build those when the water is a kilometer deep. Wave action in a hurricane strength storm is a problem, and from the article they haven’t taken that seriously. Perhaps someone has, but they really should ask some professionals.

        The second problem is more severe. It is societal – the constraints imposed by life at sea in a fairly small setting are not conducive to libertarian ideals.

        A floating island is a ship, just like a regular ship, or like an oil platform. It doesn’t matter if the ship is not moving. These things need constant maintenance and attention.

        So either the inhabitants have to organize like the crew of a ship, which leads to a somehat regimented lifestyle.

        Or the inhabitants have to hire a crew, and live apart from the real world of keeping the ship alive. This leads to a 2-class society, which will not end up being the libertarian setting they are after.

        —-
        No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

        1. Right
          [quote]Or the inhabitants have to hire a crew, and live apart from the real world of keeping the ship alive. This leads to a 2-class society, which will not end up being the libertarian setting they are after.[/quote]

          Exactly. Maybe they could have robots that maintain the ship and fulfill the more disgusting or tedious tasks; but even the robots need maintenance from time to time, so someone has to fix the robots. Maybe that someone decides he’s the most important person in the boat/platform/whatever, and there’s another possible root of dissent.

          With regards to hurricanes, maybe the only solution to sustained maritime occupation far from land is underwater habitats. But that’s definitely a big problem to solve.

          But let’s give them some credit:their ideas might be useful, but not for their original goals. Maybe some of that tech could be implemented by some nations to counter the effects of sea-level rise and climate change.

          —–
          It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
          It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

          Red Pill Junkie

        2. Yes I agree. Those are the
          Yes I agree. Those are the real problems. The libertarian model itself is not. putting it to practice at sea is. If it ever gets started it will start small and specialised. Perhaps something involving medicine. Or perhaps a cruise liner with a captain and crew employed to run the ship by the inhabitants of the ship. In work the captain and crew can be regimented as much as they like – they had a job description and signed up to the job by contract, but it does not mean the inhabitants have to be similarly regimented.

          1. perhaps less centralized
            Perhaps the approach should be less centralized. Make a big base station island/ship, and put some of the inhabitants there. The other inhabitants go on smaller ships, in groups of, say 5 to 100. The base station is used to coordinate the groups joint business, supply, maintenance and such.

            Most of the time, the little groups go their merry way, doing whatever they want. They can communicate with each other, with the base station and whoever they want. Telecommuting on water.

            This would give more freedom to the little groups. Individuals could move between these groups, and/or to and from teh base station. Or, of course, they can quite the whole deal and move back to land.

            One downside of this is that a lot of the “population” have to be sailors. Not that this in itself is bad, once you get used to it.

            At sea or on land, a nomadic lifestyle seems more consistent with libertarian ideas than a sedentary life.

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

          2. Virtual examples
            Right now we’re dealing with hypothetical models of libertarian societies, while we forget that there already are communities of groups that regulate themselves with their own laws.

            Only that they exist in cyberspace.

            Second Life and the WoW should be good examples of how these communities evolve and interact. Of course, even in those examples, there’s always a higher authority in charge of maintaning the site, disciplining the trolls and criminals, etc.

            Hell, even here at TDG, there’s not a week when some of us Admins don’t have to delete some annoying Spam message.

            Of course, the biggest penalty around here is that Almighty Greg —blessed be thy Underland name— kicks you out. But that’s because our life is not intrinsically intertwined with TDG. We don’t eat blog comments —yet 😉

            I think we should try to study virtual communities a little more, before trying to leap into the sea.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          3. that and the old days
            Indeed we should study how new tools can give us the benefits we are looking for, not losing track of the risk that big brother will not lose track of what we do and say every minute.

            Libertarians should also study older societies that showed some libertarian tendencies. Nomads, and entire tribes that moved long distances. North American Indian tribes did this, Germanic tribes, Turkic tribes. Greece was the destination of seeral such movements. The list is long, and I think this is not entirely disconnected from today’s libertarian ideals.

            Personally I would not mind living at sea, if it was not so inconvenient 🙂

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

          4. LeBaron
            This discussion reminded me of a terrible tragedy that happened in Mexico a few days ago.

            Some members of a Mormon group —the LeBarons— a community that lives (somewhat) independently from the rest of Mexican society, after making public protests against kidnapping gangs that have been harassing them, were picked up by an armed group that were dressed as soldiers.

            They were tortured, killed, and their bodies dumped in the road.

            No matter how much you want to isolate yourself from the world, the world will always be there; and it will always be inside you, too.
            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          5. 2 classes
            You are already defining two classes of inhabitants: the crew and the citizens; both with different rights and responsibilities.

            I don’t know: Maybe I’m showing such a rejection for this idea because, to my eyes, it feels like cheating. You’re abandoning your original ship (the country you live in) and instead of trying to make it better, you give all the rest the bird sign, and after taking all the cash you made in there, you go settle somewhere else.

            We should stop pretending we’re all living in separate islands. In risk of sounding too “NewAge-y”, I think that the fundamental thing to correct is to realize that we are all one, that what happens to an African villager that I will never know in person affects my life in some way as well.

            If we don’t correct that, no amount of new countries will solve the problem. They can go and colonize the moons of Mars if they want; it won’t make a difference.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          6. The crew are employed and
            The crew are employed and there voluntarily. They will have time off and changes of shifts. I think you are confusing a libertarian society with some kind of rich commune where nobody works and the crew are like slaves. everyone will work some of the time. I dont see the two classes of citizens you are talking about. everyone will work some of the time, and the jobs they have with the contracts they sign will determine the responsibilities and styles of work they will have to process.

            Libertarian society is based on voluntary relationships, not coerced ones or forced ones. This goes for harvesting organs too – people donate organs occasionally in our societies. It might be that in a libertarian society money would be involved too – if someone needs a kidney and you feel you can spare yours then why shouldnt you get paid for it?

          7. all in the same boat
            I’m not sure about the time off stuff.

            The crew + citizens approach may work at the beginning. But having crew live in a structural professional environment, and the citizens living under different rules will cause problems in the long run.

            Paying the crew for voluntary employment doesn’t eliminate the problem that you do in fact have 2 classes. Those who make things work, and those who are along for the ride and pay for it.

            The point is that the crew have to work in a structured, command driven, planned environment. You can’t run a ship by consensus. And you need a certain number of crew to fulfill all the necessary functions, they can’t just quite when they feel like it.

            This structured society would exist in parallel with the relatively unstructured society of, dare I say it, the passengers. You can’t avoid it, you will get us-and-them sentiments.

            The attractiveness of the sea based society is mostly that it would physically separate itself from current states. Therefor it could, or so these proponents think, legally separate itself, at least in practical terms.

            Another attractive point (I am speculating) for these particular proponents is that it is moderately high tech. Perhaps less moderately than they currently think, but that can be solved.

            The downside is that the environment is physically more constrained than what we are used to now. I suspect that these outside constraints will have an effect on the society in that environment in the long run.

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

          8. I think the main point is
            I think the main point is being missed. The crew will sign their contracts voluntarily. they will not be forced or coerced. in a libertarian society no one believes in equality of jobs – only of basic rights. They would be renumerated accordingly. It is quite acceptable for a crew to sign their contracts voluntarily and live their regimented work life while they are on duty. Just as a hairdresser has to cut hair when in work, a ships crew runs a ship during work. They will not be slaves or second class citizens. In current freight ships, typically the crew work 6 month shifts. They have time off during that 6 month spell. They can sleep and have recreational time. But they cannot go on holiday or decide not to do their job. The other 6 months of the year they can do what they like – usually they return home to their families. They are very well paid.

          9. basic point
            No I think my basic point is a different one.

            That point is that on this floating society, the inhabitants/citizens live there permanently. That is the whole point of the endeavour. The crew in this model of voluntary work don’t have to live there.

            This is similar to the crew being guest workers if they are not citizens.

            The employment being voluntary does not change that you will get a 2-class society, with mutual disrespect between the classes. Besides employment being “voluntary” is quite often an illusion. Many abuses by employers are excused by saying it’s voluntary, when in fact the employee has little choice.

            Because the “voluntary” part is often not accurate, I believe that a libertarian society that is not egalitarian will soon end up being authoritarian instead.

            There is another aspect to the crew being employees of the libertarian citizens. When the system (the ship) is under duress due to mechanical failures, bad weather, or something of the sort, the crew has to have command, and their bosses have to follow orders. Give the system 100 years, and some crews somewhere will take command permanently.

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

          10. I concur
            I concur 100% with Earthling’s POV.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          11. Consent
            I think what Friedman is driving at is the concept of “consent of the governed”. In our societies, even the best of them, rules, laws, and structures are imposed on individuals who disagree with them or had no say in their formulation. It really is one of our greatest hurdles to overcome.

            Friedman’s solution is to create a civilization where you simply fire up the houseboat and take off when things take a turn you do not personally like. Change a community into something that is oppressive or distasteful and suddenly you run out of citizens. The market at work. In reality, seasteading is laden with practical pitfalls.

            In most cases, we are stuck with a snowball effect that eventually creates an unworkable or hostile government mechanism. We must suffer oppression, flee, or rebel to restore our rights, all quite messy answers.

            Here, our state government has a “sunset” law. The state agencies expire without constant reauthorization. Believe it or not, an agency that I have dealings with missed reauthorization. In a few months these pencil pushers are gone! I think the future lies in this direction. Popular consent every generation would greatly improve our condition and reduce the need of violence.

          12. Consent
            This issue of “consent of the governed” is interesting to explore.

            For the first generation of the Seasteaders the rules are very flexible and customized to their taste. If they don’t like it, they can quit.

            Same thing with Virtual communities as a matter of fact.

            The problem begins with the subsequent generations. The people borne into a place whose preconditions their parents agreed upon, not them.

            Of course, this is the case in every form of State. I didn’t choose to be born in Mexico.

            But, let’s face it: the rights enjoyed by citizens in the majority of modern states is pretty much the same. There’s a level of homogeinity to be found in what a citizen can or cannot do in Canada, the USA, Argentina & the UK.

            Problems are more palpable when you view smaller communities with more exotic forms of social order; take for instance the descendants of all those people who were involved in the famous Bounty mutiny: they live in this remote Pacific island, but instead of being an idyllic paradise, living conditions are pretty harsh, and not just because of the lack of resources —a man who stayed there reported that all the women got to be raped by older men when they were teenagers.

            So these are the things that trouble me: the choices the first members agree upon, that might not be to their children’s best interests. Imagine if the members of NAMBLA decide to create their own little nation where their life style is not persecuted. I’ll leave that to your imagination.

            So, what are they really wanting to accomplish here: to build a new multi-generational civilization with new rules and forms of government, or just a refuge for them that will cease to exist once they move on or die?

            How many children were pissed off to have been born in a hippie commune with no access to electricity, television, movies, etc, just because their parents decided it was a better way to live? Sure, they moved out when they were old enough; but nobody can restore their childhood years.

            You see? I’m even more of a libertarian than the Seasteaders 😉

            PS: Another thing to explore, is to research in the more suitable numbers for a sustained human group. How many is too little, and how many is too much? I think countries like China are too big, but I also think that the communities these guys are planning are way too small; from an outside POV, I think that countries like Denmark, Iceland & the Netherlands are closer to the ideal number (in terms of population density/landmass area as well).

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

          13. I reckon you are seeing this
            I reckon you are seeing this libertarian society in isolation rather than one choice among many – the choice blinkers are on. You can live in Mexico or China or USA or Zimbabwe or Libertarian Floating Nation. Out of all the choices which nation do you think is best for you. What level of citizen are you in your country? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, nth? as compared to the perceived level of citizen you would be in a voluntary society?

            Consent is another word for voluntarism because involuntary consent, forced or coerced consent is not really consent at all.

            Children born pissed off? Again children dont intrinsically know the other choices out there. They would have to learn those options by experience or observation. That is how big government tends to come about in the first place – the next generation have no experience of the freedoms of the last. And in the case of a voluntary society you can leave without problems and return without problems. Compare, for example, with the USA and its global taxation of citizens.

          14. Pissed, sooner or later
            [quote]Children born pissed off? Again children dont intrinsically know the other choices out there. They would have to learn those options by experience or observation. [/quote]

            Well, I’m confused here, because first you’re discussing how open and un-isolated these libertarian communities would be, and then you tell me that children born into these new nations wouldn’t know what they’re missing (or gaining) compared to other places.

            The people angry with their hippie parents weren’t obviously borne pissed. They got pissed after they discovered all the opportunities they missed in mainstream society. Were they better off without the senseless materialism that permeates modern society? That’s a choice their parents made for them.

            Remember that movie by M. Night Shyamalan, The Village? I would have punched my father in the face if I’d discovered that he lied to me, and made me live in this delusional make-believe world concocted by him and others like him, in order to “save” me.

            That’s why countries like China and Cuba have such restriction on the Internet: to prevent their citizens from making impertinent comparisons.

            Anyway, we’re talking about going in and out countries like you were going in and out restaurants; but let’s face it: for most of us it’s not that easy. Forget about legal restrictions you might encounter —BTW: F*%ck you Canada!— but there’s also the issue of $$$

            What level of citizenship do I have? I’m a 3rd-grade citizen, because I’m not completely poor, but I don’t have enough wealth to enjoy the benefits of the elite —and I have to pay taxes, not like the REALLY poor.

            But that’s why I want to change THIS society. And the best way to accomplish that, is following MJ’s advise: Starting with the man in the mirror.

            —–
            It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
            It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

            Red Pill Junkie

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