Having never been someone who can clearly express a personal concept, I’ll probably be philosophically corrected here (Takes off hat, throws it into ring)
The idea of ‘nothing’ seems pretty straightforward, it means zero which in my book means no chance of anything any different. The idea of the universe, or a singularity, arising from ‘nothing’ is a bit nonsensical. Whatever gave rise to things as they are must have had the property of potential. There must have ‘always’ been something.
Can you see my reasoning breaking down yet? I can feel it but like a British explorer in the uncharted rain forests with only a pith helmet and machete……I can almost imagine a state of infinite potential and no time. Every possibility arises simultaneously, an infinity of chaoses and of patterns. Consciousness and existence are guaranteed. The choice of continued existence is guaranteed (well, at least it’s as likely as any other state) and the universe chooses to exist as patterns for as long as possible because it prefers this to the larger infinity of chaoses. (Imagine being conscious of total chaos, trying to make a cup of tea or planning a trip to the seaside……!)Voila, here we are!
I don’t know, existence and consciousness seem so similar when you consider the alternatives, a conceptual infinity of alternatives. Maybe we are just lucky but I’m reasonably sure I’m conscious and that everybody else is and I know what I would choose. I like the idea of having a chance to choose and have some say, however tenuous, in the development of my own existence.
Once you get some control over potential, life and evolution are a piece of cake. The perfect cup of tea, however……….
Infinite potential
I suppose that's the key of this whole 3-ring circus: to explore and make use of the potential you have.
The bitter cynic in me sometimes thinks some people are endowed with more potential than others. Take this Phelps character whose mug hasn't left TV transmissions since the games began: After Beijing 2008 is over, the only challenge left for him would be to compete against dolphins or sharks! So, was he one of the lucky ones, for being born in a rich country where his natural potential could flourish?
Maybe.
But who am I to say what's the REAL potential of that little kid selling bubble gum in the streets of Mexico city? Is he doomed to failure since birth? I'm sure many childhood friends of Phelps were given the same opportunities he enjoyed early in his life, and yet he's the one suffering from the weight of all that bling around his neck...
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Potential
There are already a lot of conditions imposed on our potential, family, culture, genetics etc. In that way it is not really comparable with something like universal consciousness making use of infinite potential, we can merely talk about it as a concept. I think you are right to be cynical about an idea that assumes equality and fairness for everyone.
I’m not so sure about exploring the potential we have though, sometimes the abilities we use on a day to day basis are the best options for survival, Amazonian tribes probably have the potential to cut down their own trees and ultimately build nuclear weapons or maybe train to be Olympic swimmers, buy televisions and sit around cheering each other on.
Have we lost or gained by exploring our potential? Maybe we will find a way to survive off this planet before it is destroyed or maybe we should be learning to make the best use of ourselves (by ourselves I mean the totality of this living system that is planet Earth) and like the universe may be doing, choose to exist the best possible way rather than just ‘exist’ for the sake of existence. A thousand years of beauty on Earth or a billion of blackness in space? A Hundred billion years of cosmic consciousness or an infinity of chaos?
Selling chewing gum and winning gold are worlds apart and bring very different lifestyles and opportunities, but in the grand scheme of things I’m not sure either hold much importance, although they are both real enough scenarios to promote discussion and thought about our existence. In that respect both scenarios hold a great deal of potential.
Role play?
I once read in a book that, before coming to this World, you CHOSE what kind of life you were going to have, kinda like a REALLY vivid MMORPG game.
So why would some people choose to live in Darfur while others chose to live in Beverly Hills? Well, maybe for the same reason some people like Horror-oriented games with really creepy settings and scary characters, and others prefer racing games or whatever. It's all about the experiences.
I'm not saying I believe this idea, but it is interesting to ponder on it. Then again, I realize I'm able to ponder on it because I happen to have an education and Internet access...
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Archetypes.
Ive heard of similar ideas, cant remember the sources though. Reminds me of the idea of karma and, at a push, religion in general in that we have some choice as to what our future in another existence will be. People still have had the chance to ponder on some big concepts before the internet! Although without some sort of education would it be possible to sponteaneously question their own existence and formulate 'spiritual' concepts?
I like the role playing idea. You enter the game as a living 'unit' and the idea is to evolve to exist (this is my version!). The winner is the last life forms left.
We are lucky to have access to lots of ideas that we can think about (and we are lucky to have enough leisure time to be able to think about them) but i think that the 'root' of most bigs concepts are available to most people, whatever their circumstances. Modern thinking may just be a lot of archetypes that are decorated to bring them up to date with the complexity of information (and words, meanings and understanding)that we are familar with.
What do you call a country and western star with a condom under his nose ?
Johnny Tash !
Agreed
Modern thinking may just be a lot of archetypes that are decorated to bring them up to date with the complexity of information (and words, meanings and understanding)that we are familar with.
Completely agreed.
So I guess we as humans form the conscious manifestation of the Universe, just another transformation of the energy that was always there.
I think it was Phil Tippet with his "Omega Point" theory the one who proposed the idea that we, as a sentient force of the Universe, are travelling trhough time to slowly create the consciousness of God. And since past, present and future are nothing but subjective constructs, "God" is already here, calling us to join Him/Her/It. This idea of course is in essence nothing new and has been flying around through different cultures throughout the centuries.
And it's infinitely more attractive from an emotional point of view than the "Eagle" concept of Castañeda, in which he claimed that an omnipresent Force imbues us with life, and at the time of our death collects all of our memories and quickly discards us to the nothingness, completely unsimpathetic towards our consciousness. Sometimes though, I feel this might be closer to the truth, since what really gives us reasons to believe the Universe cares about us and our wellbeing? Of course when I think this I'm under one of my many states of depression ;-)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Nothing...Gnostics believe that it is a fact that we came from..
Nothing and Something or whatever was always there that somehow rippled and became the universe...except Gnostics say that Always has always been. I think the Key is Sefirot or the Tree of Life...which is a massive means of manifestation which includes the Generative Order of David Bohm. There are times when my mind is in the realm of nothing lately. I am beginning to believe I just might someday experience nothing or something...Am I really here?
Potentials
Perhaps the peasant scratching a meagre living for his family in a poverty-stricken place is fulfilling his potential to just the same extent as someone like Phelps - in a different way, but no less importantly. It really depends on what value we place on 'potential'.
Regards, Kathrinn
Good point
Not to undermine Phelps' incredible achievements, but it is interesting what he mentions of his daily routine:
Good for him; but I for one would like to do something more with my days. Like learning new things, or thinking new thoughts.
So suddenly the peasant's accomplishment to provide for his family doesn't look that trivial.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
peasants and nomads
People have been to the moon, written wonderful books, transformed the world with airplanes and computers. And they have achieved incredible speeds running and swimming, and they can jump incredibly high.
But if you put most of these people on a fertile farm with 100 sheep, they would starve within 1 or 2 years.
We should respect the basics.
How many of us can make fire? How many of us can catch sheep that don't want to be caught?
Fish are good to eat, but how many of us can catch one with just the stuff you can find in the woods?
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It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
Self suffiency
They could always check on the internet for top farming tips, loose the sheep and plant Goji berries. Almost anyone can catch a Goji berry!
A couple of olympic atheletes might struggle being a farming community. I think we could still live off the land if there were enough people and 1 or 2 had the relevent skills to teach farming to everyone else. I'm sure there will be a database to sign up to on the internet.
sure
sure people have the intellectual capacity today
And the Boy Scouts, and most military people can do it
But without internet, if you just drop a city person somewhere, with no connection to the outside world?
Consider the movie Cast Away which I am not selling.
Could you survive under those conditions? Let us be honest now.
Of course that movie is a remake of Robinson Crusoe.
But could you do it? I say 80% says no, you won't make it for 1 year. Not that this is a personal insult, we are just modern people.
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It is not how fast you go
it is when you get there.
I couldn't
I certainly wouldn't make it. wouldn't know where to start.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
I'll help you, Red
One of the advantages of growing up pre-technology (to a certain extent) and pre pre-packaged living is that us elders learned a few survival skills that today's younger ones never needed to learn. Who knows, we may even be considered 'useful' one day in the future!
Of course, Red, you'd have to move to Oz!!
Regards, Kathrinn
I've thought about it
Moving to Oz, that is.
Lots of conferences around here inviting people to go study or work to Australia.
Although I fear that later Aussies would start to resent their immigrant guests, just as it is happening in France and... pretty much elsewhere.
But, I would have the advantage of already having some good friends in the land down under ;)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie