Violence or Non-Violence?

We have been having a bit of an e-mail discussion among the TDG admins, concerning the recent tragic events that have been reported in Tibet and the nearby chinese regions. Some of us feel that it was about time that these riots and protests began, since for 50 years the chinese have trampled on the cultural and political rights of the Tibet, a country they invaded and claimed as theirs unilateraly.

Note here that in all this mess the Dalai Lama, the religious head of the tibetan church, and also their political leader according to the exiled tibetan government, has for the last two years turned away from the idea of a free Tibet, what he wants is a more autonomous Tibet although still under Chinese rule. Maybe this change came out of a sense of practicality, since it is obvious that by now none of the surviving exiled leaders of Tibet will be able to return in their life-times. Nevertheless, Beijing has been quick to blame all the violence to the Dalai Lama, as a plan to sabotage their precious Olimpic Games where they would show the world what a great and modern nation they have become.

But getting back to our little e-mail discussion: some of us have obviously mentioned names like Gandhi and Mandela, as a way to point out that non-violent movements are more efficient in ensuing beneficial social changes, while it has been argued by others that in a country like XXIst century China, a man like Gandhi would not last alive a week.

My mind objects this idea, but maybe it is a mere emotional sentimental response. Maybe I'm desperate to believe non-violence is a better answer, otherwise I myself would become someone with blood in my hands...

For I live in a country where social civil rights are defiled every day, where you cannot expect a thing from politicians except that they will only seek to amass as much money as they can during their time in office, where you fear police officers instead of admire them, where you can never be certain if you'll be able to return home at night, where the rich get richer and the poor get miserable. This is a climate of despair, and despair can turn to rage quickly, because violence is the obvious solution for a person who has nothing to lose; and I fear I am becoming that person.

So I ask you this: Violence or Non-Violence?

[UPDATE]: Roaming through the net, I stumbled upon this brilliant animation short, that in 1-minute manages to express a very profound idea, that I believe may be relevant to my original topic.

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I vote no violence...

Yet. There is a matrix that drives our experiences here in time space. One where two pillars on the Sefirot or Tree of Life states it this way. One pillar is positive and the other is negative; one is male and the other is female; one is white and the other is black — so that these two pillars represent the eternal play of opposites in dynamic interaction. Evil is imbalanced force, out of place or out of harmony. Severity in imbalance is cruelty and oppression, and mercy in imbalance is weakness that allows and facilitates great evil. True compassion is a dynamic balance of severity and mercy...the middle way.

evil as a driving force

So Enigmni, you suscribe to the idea that evil is a driving force of growth in the Universe, that we will never get rid of it, and in a way it is esential to the living experience?

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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

philosophy aside

Fundamental philosophy aside, there is very little we know ahout what is going on with regard to the Tibet problem. The Chinese strategy of blacking out information is working pretty well. So it is nearly impossible to decide on a course of action.

For the long term, I propose we ditch the concept that the Olympic games serve to understanding between countries and cultures. They were always political. 1920 and 1924 losers of WWI were excluded. In 1936, the Nazis pulled the wool over many people's eye, when many people were already in concentration camps. After WWII, Germany was excluded. In 1980 and 1984, boycotts were used as a cold war measure. Now in 2008, China is presenting itself as a nice, warm, fuzzy state.

And many athletes go there, to make money in advertising, and to enlarge their egos.

I say don't support these sports. Don't support one of the most corrupt companies in the world, the IOC. Let's make the Olympic idea fizzle out. It has no honest benefit for the understanding between cultures and peoples.

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if everything is under control, you are not going fast enough (Mario Andretti)

I agree, but...

I agree with you that the Olimpic Games have never risen to what they were supposed to represent, excluding some exceptional achievementes by great athletes. They have always been political.

But you didn't answer the question. Concerning this current turmoil, or another in some other part of the world being the result of some other set of problems: violence or non-violence?

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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

you are correct

Quite correct, I didn't answer the original question. I don't believe there is a definitive answer, philosophy does not help. In some cases non-violence is best, especially if you can minimize the number of victims.

In other cases, violence is not avoidable. Some pacifists even refuse the right to self defence in personal situations. If someone is directly trying to kill me, I reserve the right to reserve myself. Including the right to kill the attacker. Some pacifists, and anti-gun people, and the Ontario government, dispute that individuals have this right.

I disagree.

If we are eternally non-violent, then the violent will always win.

In the meantime, there is no reason to react violently whenever there is a threat.

Hence my recommendation in this particular case (the Tibet-Olympics confusion) is purely tactical advice, even if it takes decades.

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if everything is under control, you are not going fast enough (Mario Andretti)

TIME

You point an important part of the discussion: time.

Because some people feel that, in order to obtain a quick result, or at least a result that they will be able to enjoy in their own life-times, they must resort to violence; whereas non-violence seem like an approach destined to take much more time —years, decades, CENTURIES.

But I personally don't know if that is a correct observation. Take some of the violent organizations trying to obtain a change, like the spanish ETA. They have been doing the same old s**t for decades now, and their dream of independence is still nowhere in sight.

The IRA, however, decided to give up the guns, and as a result, it seems things are now moving on the right track.

So I think I feel that non-violence feels like it's the long-term road, when in reality it may be the shortest way to REALLY obtain the changes you wanted. Because with violence you may easily overthrow a government, but that doesn't stop another new-comer to doing the same thing to you, an this goes on and on and on in a bloody cycle that may be longer that if the original revolutionaries had sticked to non-violent approaches.

Because what is the power of non-violence, if not showing a mirror to your torturer, to expose him to the reflection of his own monstruosity?

Non-violence may seem tat it takes longer, but at least you know you have not diverged from your original path.

It is almost like the difference between exercising and 'miracle diets': with the 'miracle diets' you loose weight quickly, but you are prone to rebounds, whereas with exercise it takes longer, but those "love handles" go away forever :-)

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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

ah yes, percentage

I think what you said can also be expressed in percentages.

First, if you always and forever insist on getting 100% of what you want, you probably get 0%. The IRA did not give up their guns at first. They just stopped demanding 100% of their goals. They probably have some guns left. Also, a lot of the IRA's money was comping from expatriate Irish private sources in the US, and the US government told them they could not count on that forever.

And thhis 100% argument is not just for the weaker party I think, but also for the stronger party.

If the stronger party wants 100%, 100% of the time, all they do is provoke violence, non-cooperation in the economy and such things. The stronger party typically wants all the money, at the expense of the weaker party. This doesn't work 100% of the time, at least not for very long, and at least as there are outside competitors.

If there are outside competitors, the local pie will get smaller, and then the argument for the strong party breaks down. 100% of a 2 pound pie is not as good as 80% of a 3 pound pie.

What I say is not just about cultural stuff, like ETA and IRA. The IRA did not succeed in gaining some of their objectives by giving up violence. They succeeded, to the extend that they did, by giving up the demand for 100%.

You say:
"Because what is the power of non-violence, if not showing a mirror to your torturer, to expose him to the reflection of his own monstrosity?"

I say, that there are enough torturers who are only to happy to be monsters. It makes some people happy to have control and cause pain. Physically and emotionally.

There are many more aspects to this of course, But looking at history, there just isn't any evidence that pacifists have ever succeeded. Gandhi won because the British were leaving anyway. There was violent discontent in India, and the British had been weakened by an extremely violent war. Gandhi, you could say, profited from all this carnage. Then Gandhi proposed to leave the empire on peacful terms.

Would the British have allowed India to leave the empire if they had their original strength? That is doubtful.

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if everything is under control, you are not going fast enough (Mario Andretti)

Mmm.. very interesting

earthling wrote:

First, if you always and forever insist on getting 100% of what you want, you probably get 0% (...)
If there are outside competitors, the local pie will get smaller, and then the argument for the strong party breaks down. 100% of a 2 pound pie is not as good as 80% of a 3 pound pie.

I like this approach, because I find it to be easy to see in real life. If you don't reach some form of compromise, you remain static. That is currently happening here in Mexico over all the fights and negotiations dealing with the long-overdue Energy Reform that may OR may not permit private investment to fund oil extraction and production.

earthling wrote:

You say:
"Because what is the power of non-violence, if not showing a mirror to your torturer, to expose him to the reflection of his own monstrosity?"

I say, that there are enough torturers who are only to happy to be monsters. It makes some people happy to have control and cause pain. Physically and emotionally.

I don't know if that's true. Even torturers have to come home every night and kiss their wives. Some of them either rationalize their intentions to justify the pain they cause, or they don't but don't look at themselves as monsters. There are also animals of course, but maybe I was referring to the people who give the orders, the ones who sign the papers.

When in college I once read a play by Mario Benedetti, called "Pedro y el Capitan" (Peter and the Captain), about a captain in a military government that is torturing a political activist, and with the play you come to understand that the real power was not with the captain inficting pain over Pedro,but with Pedro, that if he didn't yield or obeyed the Captain's demands for information, then the tortures had no higher purpose (which was to track the members of the dissenting movement so they could be crushed and peace could be restored) and the captain couldn't see himself as an instrument of Justice but as a bloody executioner. Of course, this may be too poetically idealistic, since in the end —like the novel '1984' shows— we all can be bent by pain, but nevertheless there may be a hint of truth there.

earthling wrote:

There are many more aspects to this of course, But looking at history, there just isn't any evidence that pacifists have ever succeeded. Gandhi won because the British were leaving anyway. There was violent discontent in India, and the British had been weakened by an extremely violent war. Gandhi, you could say, profited from all this carnage. Then Gandhi proposed to leave the empire on peacful terms.

Would the British have allowed India to leave the empire if they had their original strength? That is doubtful.

You may be right, I honestly don't know. Once again, I would LIKE to think that Gandhi would have won in the end, although it would have taken many more decades. The south-africans were certainly not leaving anywhere when they realized they had to end the Apartheid.

I once read that Gandhi proposed the same policy of Non-Violence to jews being opressed by the Nazi machinery, which to some people —including me, I suppose— sounds pretty preposterous,but maybe he was on to something, since even after the war ended we haven't got ridden of anti-semitism in this world, and that same hate can spark at any moment. It already has in many places of the world, like the late Yugoslavia.

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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

No...I believe in Contrast

Contrast allows elementals in a mix to become apparent to sensual experiences. We are presented with many choices in life. I believe in the middle way. In my opinion evil and self-righteous girly thought are both evil in that they rest within the realms of selfishness. It is the middle way of ancient thought that I support. As I have said, true compassion is a dynamic balance.

Ok

Enigmni Freak wrote:

Contrast allows elementals in a mix to become apparent to sensual experiences.

Maybe when we won't need senses, or acquire better and more refined ones, we will be able to discard evil.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

what is violence?

What constitutes violence?

There are obvious things, like shooting someone, dropping bombs, blowing people up. Stabbing peple with kinves, cutting them with swords. Hitting them with stones, With fists.

Scratching them with fingernails. Sitting on a smaller person, so they cannot breathe.

Burning their house when they are away, is that violence? You did them no bodily harm.

Taking away all their possessions, so they have nothing, no food, no means to get food, But you did not touch them. Is that violence?

Sitting in front of their house, so that they cannot leave without you following them. Is that violence?

Digging away the water supply of your neighbors, who you have never seen. But now they can't grow food, and they can't drink. Is that violence? You never hit anyone.

I say there are more forms of violence than the pacifists realize.

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if everything is under control, you are not going fast enough (Mario Andretti)

I couldn't agree more

earthling wrote:

I say there are more forms of violence than the pacifists realize.

Take for instance a "Pacifist" march that blocks the streets of a city and creates a major traffic jam. They are not hurting anyone... directly, but they are avoiding people to reach their offices, which might get them fired, or worse still, they could prevent an ambulance to reach the hospital in time with a critical patient. So, would that make the protesters responsible for that patient's death?

Maybe it is impossible NOT to do violence. Maybe every action we do, no matter how selfless or well-intentioned, will unavoidably hurt someone somewhere in an indirect manner. Take ivory for instance. I can choose not to buy sutff made with illegal ivory, which would hurt the market, but that means the kids of the poachers that kill the elephants will have nothing to eat...

I suppose that's one of the reasons we should refrain from judging people. We do not have the wits to see the events in all their complexity, and to predict the ultimate outcomes.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie