Biologist P.Z. Myers has become somewhat of an Internet phenomenon on account of his ascerbic blog Pharyngula, on which he often attacks those who dispute the theory of evolution (generally grouped by Myers under the one heading, 'Creationists').
Though his blog was already insanely popular, his star fully rose when he was kicked out of a preview showing of the Intelligent Design movie Expelled (ironically, Richard Dawkins attended with him, but was let in).
In a posting this week on Pharyngula, Myers turned his attention to psi research, with a diatribe aimed at Rupert Sheldrake. In it, he labeled Sheldrake as being "nuts", going on to say "I've read enough of Sheldrake's work to know what a godawful load of substanceless bollocks he can spew at will." Apart from the personal attacks, Myers also said Sheldrake's experiments "are exercises in gullibility, anecdote, and sloppy statistics....You can't just simply carry out a Fortean exercise in collecting odd anecdotes and unexplained phenomena."
I spoke to Rupert Sheldrake about the Pharyngula post yesterday, and here's what he had to say in response:
[W]ith such a farrago of prejudice, ignorance and arrogance, it’s hard to know where to begin. It doesn’t really seem worth replying to people who aren’t interested in the facts but simply in venting their rage.
Myers has not taken the trouble to read any of my experiments on telephone telepathy nor any of my other research on the subject and is obviously as bigoted as Dawkins himself. For example when he refers to my experiments as "exercises in gullibility, anecdote and sloppy statistics" the only thing he refers to is an attack by some sceptics on my staring research based on a fallacious argument which I’ve already refuted in the Skeptical Inquirer.
He has not taken the trouble to look at the telephone telepathy or email telepathy experiments, published in peer-reviewed journals, which are based not on anecdotes but on randomized controlled tests. Then he accuses me of not proposing any theory for telepathy, which in fact I have done. But there’s nothing one can do about ranters of this kind, who are beyond the reach of science and reason.
Some of the comments following his blog are equally sad and remind me of the low level of debate found on the Dawkins website where people vie with each other in their prejudice, sneering and nastiness.
Personally, I have to say I find this attack by Myers to be off-base, and in some ways, confused. Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, he attacks Sheldrake based on an article which is - quite simply - a rather shocking indictment of Richard Dawkins...and Myers doesn't have a word of criticism for Dawkins (or, at the very least, the production company behind the 'Enemies of Reason' series). Additionally, it's unclear whether Myers even read the article, as he claims Sheldrake simply indulges in "Fortean exercises collecting anecdotes", despite Sheldrake pointing out in the article (to Dawkins) that his experiments have been published through peer-review.
Also, Myers fails to mention anything about Sheldrake's detailed and intelligent rebuttals to criticism of his experiments, such as this one - which inspired the editor of The Skeptic to introduce Sheldrake's response by saying "Is it possibly the case that Sheldrake is even more sceptical than the sceptics?"
P.Z. Myers seems to see enemies everywhere, insidious in their attempts to overthrow science - often betrayed by the loaded language of his post (e.g. "Notice the devious twist?"). He fails to distinguish between Sheldrake's scientific research, and his enjoyable speculations (as can be found in the 'Trialogue' series with Terence McKenna and Ralph Abraham). And instead of laying out his problems with the evidence collected by Sheldrake, he relies on an ad hominem attack, with plenty of straw men to boot.
Sheldrake has collected some intriguing evidence of anomalies in science. Whether his results will be confirmed in further tests is still to be seen (though there have been some negative and positive replications thus far). But Sheldrake - probably the most eloquent of spokespersons for research into anomalies - has faced up to attacks for the past couple of decades now, and some his previous words are probably a good response to P.Z. Myers' post on Pharyngula:
To accept [the existence of psi] would not involve the abandonment of science and reason, and the collapse of civilization as we know it; rather it would extend the scope of science and of evolutionary understanding....I am a sceptic, but of a different kind. His scepticism is directed towards anything he regards as "paranormal", taking as normal that which lies within the limits of current scientific understanding. My scepticism is directed towards the assumption that we know enough to proclaim what is possible and what is not.
Certainly would be interesting to see a debate between Sheldrake and Myers.



More of the same
I've read Myers' screed along with the lengthy comments and it's the typical self-congratulatory, "Look how much smarter we are than those pathetic woo-woos" kind of nonsense, interspersed with a few entirely predictable, "If telepathy were real he would have seen his assailant coming" quips. How original. How droll. How sad.
I think Myers' piece is actually an excellent microcosm of the nature of organized skepticism today. Since they don't do experiments and are faced with an increasing body of solid research that shows psi not only to be real but pervasive, they have only a few proven tactics to fall back on: personal attack, misrepresentation of the data, fabrication, and nastiness. Game over.
Gaah
It is very, very hard not to start tearing apart furniture with bare hands when facing such arrogance.
As i see it, true followers of this relatively newborn hysterical religion, scientism, base much of their personal identity on their faith, as with many other religions. Thus anything that conflicts with their world view is also seen (or felt, to be more precise) as a personal attack. A victim of scientism more or less unconsciously feels that his/her whole existence is threatened by the possibility of paranormal phenoma really existing. To challenge their views is an attack against their identify and self-image.
So, how to approach them? Maybe we should just ambush them with a hug and say "I love you" whenever we can :)
In the meanwhile i'm waiting for science to discover physical evidence of archetypes existing in the neural network, archetypes existing as "neural grooves" as some have predicted. Such discovery would enable science to encompass many things that now are out of its reach. Of course, discovery of physical manifestation of archetypes in brains would not answer the question: are some paranormal experiences and all archetypal/spiritual experiences merely products of the brain, or are those experiences more like openings into something else, that "opening" enabled by our brains.
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The flap of a butterfly's wings in the Atlantic may cause it to fly.
Debate?
Can you have a debate with someone such as this? Would one get a word in edgeways?
...
I'm fanatical about moderation
Anthony North
Of course... not
With people like this—Myers— there can be no civil dialogue; instead it's like the Vagina Monologues, with the difference that in this case we would deal with another kind of body orifice.
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
Let's move on
Question is - are these guys worth it. They have long become irrelevant in my opinion and it's time to see them for what they are - a distraction. Every minute spent studying or refuting them is a minute wasted. Let's move on.
In fact...
In fact I'd ask Greg - Is it worth reporting on? Is it news worthy? Does it move the discussion, and our understanding, forward in any way?
Forward or backward?
In fact I'd ask Greg - Is it worth reporting on? Is it news worthy? Does it move the discussion, and our understanding, forward in any way?
Depends whether you think psi research is deserving of scientific respect. Myers' blog is the most popular science blog on the 'net, so when he spews nonsense about psi research, he influences the opinion of a *lot* of other scientists out there. Giving some space to a reply, or rebuttal, is - I think - important.
Kind regards,
Greg
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You monkeys only think you're running things
Dream out loud
Exactly, Greg. Ignoring Myers and not replying to his rants only plays to his advantage -- most people will take silence to mean Myers is right, we have no answers. But if we respond in the manner of Rupert Sheldrake -- with reason, courtesy and dignity, with evidence and objective counterarguments -- then the public will wake up and see what's really going on.
The sad thing is, if Myers lies and misinforms about Sheldrake's scientific methods, who's to say he isn't lying and misinforming about his own mainstream science? It wouldn't be the first time boorish, egotistical bullies got their way in science. Just look at the Leakey's in Kenya, last year they had two palaeontologists deported simply because they don't agree with their theories.
The more people like Myers and Randi spew their dogmatic vitriol, the more Rupert Sheldrake's balanced, reasonable and dignified manner will endear itself to the public. And that's a good thing. So I say let Myers make a fool of himself! He's digging his own grave.
Unfortunately, nuffnuffs will be nuffnuffs, and being nuffnuffs, they shout and vent and rant and rave so loudly, it's all people hear, and the reason of true scientists like Rupert Sheldrake are drowned out. That's why we should never, ever give up the fight. Myers and Randi want us to be quiet, to not argue, not fight, to give in and give up and go away and not be heard, nor even seen. That's why we have to continue replying and arguing and talking and not letting the nuffnuffs misinform and downright lie.
And you can dream
So dream out loud
And don't let the bastards grind you down
-- U2 "Acrobat"
Rick MG wrote: > Myers and
Rick MG wrote:
> Myers and Randi want us to be quiet, to not argue,
> not fight, to give in and give up
Quite so, it's amazing how stagnation works both on personal level and on the level of humanity. And how undiscovered realities are usually found from where there is lots of sincere and enthusiastic debate. And then there are the lonely wolves of traveling forward. Hope to become one.
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The flap of a butterfly's wings in the Atlantic may cause it to fly.
Myers' Real Beef Is With Christianity
Myers cannot accept the work or conclusions of Dr. Sheldrake because that would give credibility to the people he despises the most, Christians, especially the young earth creationist types. Of course, Myers puts all religions (except his) into the same category because anybody who believes in God must be an idiot in his view. But for some reason, he hates Christians the most. I wonder if he was molested by a clergyman in his youth as Richard Dawkins was.
Any evidence for paranormal phenomena is taboo in Myers' little world because it can easily be construed as evidence for such things as spirits and souls. And if spirits exist, so can God. The proud atheist in Myers cannot allow that. The self-righteousness and pomposity of the man are now legendary. He's digging his own grave, of course.
What is science
All the power to you if you feel it's worthwhile...I think psi research is already getting scientific respect from guys like Sheldrake and Radin. Real scientists.
Sheldrake - Myers meeting
No, because Myers has nothing to debate. From his style of conversation it is eminent that he despises any thought of possible "paranormal" phenomena so much that he will never read anything remotely similar; in the best case he will skim over it.
The other reason is his personality: Myers has a big page count for the same reason Alan Berg, the radio moderator, was successful; be abrasive, insulting and spiteful.
- He has no qualms to post private mails and ridicule the
sender
- He tells anyone (even follow skeptics) what bunch of
morons they are if they disagree with him (often
misunderstanding the position of the opponent or even
knowing nothing at all because he "knows" that someone
is a kook).
- He is a bad loser who sabotaged the count for the best
scientific website after it was clear that he will lose.
He asked his viewers to do anything so that his personal
favorite wins; that resulted in a totally fruitless
"competition" of bot votes. Someone got even so far to
hack himself into the system (Fortunately both sites
accepted a draw).
Please look at the style of this fans and commenters and the truth of the old saying: "Tell me who your friends are and I tell you who you are" will be self-evident.
Let's imagine the meeting would happen...
*What* exactly could someone learn from the meeting except for the entertainment part (insults etc.) ? What can Myers communicate which people haven't known before ?
Myers
Yeah I registered just to reply to this post -- but Greg, I'm sure, knows me well enough already -- as does Red Pill, etc.
Suffice it to say PZ Myers BANNED ME from his blog (but then so did Michael Prescott, another story, and Anthony North!).
Here's the details on my PZ Myers' blog posting: 1) I have a masters from the U of MN, the same school Myers teaches at, although he's in the boondocks, while I'm in the main metro for Minnesota. 2) I have studied ecology, biology, etc. as a third of my undergrad credits 3) On Myers' blog I consistently emphasized the discipline of QUANTUM EVOLUTION, as per McFadden's book, along with the discipline of QUANTUM CHAOS. 4) I also posted my personal experiences with nonwestern philosophy as examples of quantum chaos but not, of course, limited to those disciplines (quantum chaos and quantum biology).
So, of course, Myers HAD to ban me -- I represented cutting edge science that he ignores. Quantum chaos is the top math field at Los Alamos Labs, Santa Fe Institute, etc. I've corresponded with quantum chaos math professor Ian Stewart, Steve Strogatz, and many other professors about these fringe science issues -- like Brian Josephson for example. Professor H.M. Collins is another.
My take is nonwestern music as alchemy -- and my blogbook is http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com
So -- why don't you all post on Myers' blog as well? Go for it -- see how long it takes you to get banned. I had fun but they freaked out too badly and reacted with the slap-down -- instead of engaging with the information at hand.
For example my promotion of Professor Jeffrey Schwartz' critique of molecular DNA sequencing could not be ignored by the biology geeks on Myers' blog. But that was about as fringe as they could get -- to continue ignoring QUANTUM BIOLOGY is only possible by being a professor in the sticks of MN. Most of his readers don't take the time to learn about quantum chaos or quantum biology and most don't want to.
Keep in mind that PZ Myers is literally surrounded by corn fields in the middle of nowhere. The dude is desperate for some intellectual banter, without necessarily needing any substance. How much better off are the rest of us? haha.
Banned?
Drew, I vaguely remember your name, but not the incident. As far as I am aware I have never banned anyone from Beyond the Blog.
I have taken action - I've deleted commenters who link to ads (Wordpress has a strict no advertising policy); those who produce diatribe longer than my posts that has nothing to do with the discussion (usually after a couple of warnings); reams and reams of Biblical quotes (I can be banished to hell only so often); and virulent spammers who post repeated stupid comments (again, after warnings).
In addition, Wordpress has an excellent spam filter that often gobbles up multi-linked comments (it's impossible to save them all), and I've suggested some people take a break to cool off (as I am doing here in light of recent events - assess just what my positoion is here at TDG). NOTE: For those who are confused, I am sick to death of my illness, financial situation and - a 2nd commenter - my lack of formal education, being used against me!
Rant over, I certainly have never, EVER, banned anyone for disagreeing with me, as is the implication. So, Drew, which of the above categories fits you?
Hey Drew :-)
Glad to see you on MY turf now LOL.
I dunno, posting comments on Myers might be fun, but after being banned—sort of—from a catholic discussion forum a year ago, being the black sheep is too demanding emotionally :-)
We at TDG certainly welcome any kind of contribution, provided they are done in a civil manner, and preferrably if they are concise and clear for all. I think we would love to hear what you have to say about quantum biology, but please keep in mind most of us are laymen, and would deeply appreciate if you explained your thoughts to our level—i.e. like we were 2-year-olds ;-)
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It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!
Red Pill Junkie
OK it's highly ironic that
OK it's highly ironic that the scientist whose life story is captured in Jamie James' new book (his earlier "Music of the Spheres" book is featured in my online masters thesis linked at http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm)
Where was I -- so this scientist is obsessed with finding new DNA "clades" - James informs us that the Kingdom, Phlyum, Order has gone the way of tootsie roll pops --
Anyway where was I -- so anyway this scientist ends up getting bit by the most poisonous snake in the world because a local Burmese has misindentified it as a nonpoisonous snake which mimics the same appearance -- to almost TOTAL identity (except a little bump on the nose).
http://www.snakecharmerbook.com/
My point is....drum roll.... Burma is the most traditional Buddhist country left on Earth (except for that the monastery monks were destroyed about a year ago).
Buddhism teaches that time itself is an illusion -- that the ONLY thing real is "empty awareness" or pure consciousness. The book notes that the scientist was CHARMED by the Buddhist culture -- to the point of being naive.
But maybe not? Maybe the Buddhist culture really did CHARM him. I've worked closely with Burmese and know some secrets -- detailed in my blogbook http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com
As I stated before this new obsession with DNA molecular time sequencing is highly problematic when compared with morphology -- Professor Jeffrey Schwartz has done a superb critique of the problems.
Not to mention science as a whole is destroying the ecology of the planet with this reductionist drive -- so "ecology" was not a real science UNTIL it established DNA sequencing (just read Jonathon Weiner's books for the skinny on that).
Have a nice day.