Did comet impact kill the mammoths?

It appears so, at least in the Americas. This blog posts reports on current work on the Younger Dryaas impacts, and you can get your information straight from the sources there, instead of filtered:

http://www.cosmictusk.com/

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Charles Pope's picture
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I watched a NOVA special recently called "Last Extinction: Megabeasts' Sudden Death":
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/

You can watch the entire program on-line here:
http://video.pbs.org/video/1108903659/

The documentary concludes (as does the Cosmic Tusk article) that a comet or cluster of comets struck the North American glaciers around 10,900 BC. The "smoking gun" is the presence of enormous quantities of rare nano-diamonds found in soil samples all over North America and also in Greenland ice-cores associated with that time.

It's beginning to look like this same comet hit circa 13,900 BC (ending the last Ice Age) and has continued to do its worse (up until this day) with a period of about 3150 years.

We're currently kicking this idea around over at DomainOfMan:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index....

epgrondine's picture
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I see from your discussion board that you are interested in Old Testament chronology and have great fears about 2012.

Here is the chronology of the Ancient Near East as best I could make out before my stroke:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...

along with an Old Testament concordance.

With discussion here:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...

The sources for Old Testament are under intense debate (and I've had a stroke), so I hope you will excuse my inability to comment on the hypothesis that OT scribes actually appropriated ancient Egyptian history.

Links to my earlier historical works may be found here:

http://manandimpactsintheamericas.blogsp...

And you may particularly enjoy this link:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0917...

You may also enjoy reading my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

The evidenced dates for what appear to be ancient impacts of fragments of Comet Encke do not show a regular 3,150 year periodicity, as the orbital mechanics of the Comet Encke debris stream with the Earth are far more complex than that. The dates for the encounters with Comet Encke's debris stream may be found in Clube and Napier's works and those of Baillie. ca. 3111 BCE (D751) 2360 BCE (D732) 1628 BCE (D469) 1159 BCE (D951) 208 BCE (D744) 536 CE.

As far as an apocalypse in 2012 goes, it is simply a con pulled by people who try to make you afraid and then sell you your fears. The last one they pulled was the crustal shift and planetary alignment of 2000. Come 2012, they'll laugh all the way to the bank, as they did in 2000.

The Maya daykeepers think its all gringo craziness.

But then there are other short period comets. While Comet Schwassmann Wachmann 3 will appear in late 2011, do not be afraid, as it will be on the other side of our solar system.

BUT the Earth will be in Comet Schwassmann Wachmann 3's debris chain in 2022, though any impacts are likely to be only in the 5 kiloton range, as occurred at Rio Caraca (1930) and Rupunini (1935).

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P., thanks for the info. I did not know that so many of the major "impact events" could be associated with the Encke debris trail, at least by the "British School" of Catastrophism. It's a pity their work is not more readily available. Do they also think Encke was the culprit in the Younger Dryas event and/or the earlier 13,865 BC event (that LaViolette attributes to a "Super Wave")? My recent paranoia is based on seeing a distinct pattern in the years 13865, 10700, 7553, and 4400 BC. There is a highly regular interval between these known catastrophes (although the data set is small and the accuracy might be poor). Did the comet "play out" by 4400 BC and leave only the debris trail as a threat?

I'm still not quite ready to dismiss 2012 as a total hoax. If nothing else it should be used to raise awareness of Earth's traumatic past and inspire mankind to set aside petty differences (while recognizing our common adversaries in the cosmos.

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P., thanks for the info. I did not know that so many of the major "impact events" could be associated with the Encke debris trail, at least by the "British School" of Catastrophism. It's a pity their work is not more readily available.

Yes it is a shame.

Benny Peiser shifted the Cambridge Conference clearing house for impact research over to AGW scepticism in Janary 2004. And the World Explorer/Ancient American/NEXUS/Atlantis Rising/Legendary Times group is simply recycling the Lemurian Fellowship's version of Augustus LePlongeon's cult archaeology, which David Hatcher Childress obtained from Richard Kieninger after Richard stole it from them.

Out of the $40 you pay amazon for my book, I see $10. It's better to write me for a signed copy, if you can get US dollars.

Charles Pope wrote:

Do they also think Encke was the culprit in the Younger Dryas event and/or the earlier 13,865 BC event (that LaViolette attributes to a "Super Wave")?

Bill Napier's new paper will demonstrate the YD-Encke connection. I follow Clube and Napier on a gravitational comet injection mechanism, and I now really lack the brains to work with supernova as injection mechanisms as Firestone and Paul La Violette propose.
(http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predic...)

I just gathered impact data before my stroke, and can't really do much more now. However, the Zodiacal debris stream is tied to Comet Encke by Napier and Clube.

Charles Pope wrote:

My recent paranoia is based on seeing a distinct pattern in the years 13865, 10700, 7553, and 4400 BC. There is a highly regular interval between these known catastrophes (although the data set is small and the accuracy might be poor). Did the comet "play out" by 4400 BC and leave only the debris trail as a threat?

My "paranoia" and "monomania" come from knowing that NASA has understated the impact hazard by an order of magnitude, and that they are endangering the lives of millions to billions of people by doing so.

And this NASA understatement is ultimately the cause of your "paranoia" as well, as they do not give comet impact studies sufficient emphasis. If they had of, you'd know for certain whether you were seeing a recurrent pattern, or an ephemeral one.

So the best I can say to you is I don't know if you are seeing the effects of another comet beside Comet Encke or not. Perhaps some of the links I gave you will help you to sort it out.

Charles Pope wrote:

I'm still not quite ready to dismiss 2012 as a total hoax.

It is, heavily promoted by the above mentioned international computer mailing list operation.

Charles Pope wrote:

If nothing else it should be used to raise awareness of Earth's traumatic past and inspire mankind to set aside petty differences (while recognizing our common adversaries in the cosmos.

The "nu-age" 2012 BS is burying neo-catastrophist science,
except where the evidence is grossly overwhelming, as in the YD impacts. On a personal level, the 2012 BS has made it nearly impossible for me to academically discuss Mayan impact mega-tsunami accounts and the archaeology thereof.

It took 10 years for the Chicxulub crater to be identified; 30 years for impact to be recognized as the cause of the dinosaurs extinction; and very few people now know of the Shiva crater and impact. (Thanks, Benny.)

A lot of what will happen next depends on the US reaction to China's space leaderships' desire to construct CAPS (Comet and Asteroid Protection System).

I hope you enjoy reading the links I gave you earlier. If you have any more questions feel free to ask; but I don't know if I'll be able to answer any of them.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P., I'll venture a two-part question and some commentary. Do you think that the so-called Age of Taurus experienced the worst bombardment since the YD, and could that have skewed the chronology of that Age (based on tree-ring and ice-core dating), particularly the period between the impact events of 4400 BC and 1159 BC. That particular interval is a little too long to fit the pattern of previous impact events (13865, 10700, 7553, and 4400 BC, as mentioned above).

From what I have read, the 1159 BC event was the most intense event since the YD event. Tree rings indicate virtually no growth (i.e., no harvests) for about 20 years! Other events, such as the 1628 BC and 3111 BC events, seem to have stunted growth for only about half as long.

It also seems evident that archaeologists have minimized the severity of the 1159 BC event, because it doesn't make sense for something truly devastating to have occurred at that particular date within the accepted/standard chronology of ancient history.

However, my studies have indicated the need to radically shorten the historical timescale, even somewhat more than Velikovsky attempted to do. Yet, the precise amount of shortening wasn't obvious until I looked at 1159 BC. The 1159 BC event was not a hiccup, it was a huge belch that really shouldn't be ignored by polite society, yet somehow the fine-feathered folks still do. It is now clear what the correct date for the beginning of the dynastic era in Egypt actually was, and it was 1159 BC!

The crux of it is this: if the proper interval between the 1159 BC event and the 4400 BC event was really the same as the previous ones (7553, 10700, 13865 BC), then Houston we have a problem. Because it means that the next major disaster is due about now! The interval from 1159 BC to 2012 AD is about the same as those earlier ones.

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P., I'll venture a two-part question and some commentary.

Hi, Charles, you have a lot more questions than two, and the interspersing of commentary with the questions makes it difficult for me to answer. But I'll give it a try...

Charles Pope wrote:

Do you think that the so-called Age of Taurus experienced the worst bombardment since the YD, and could that have skewed the chronology of that Age (based on tree-ring and ice-core dating), particularly the period between the impact events of 4400 BC and 1159 BC. That particular interval is a little too long to fit the pattern of previous impact events (13865, 10700, 7553, and 4400 BC, as mentioned above).

For Comet Encke's activities, from the YD impacts on see Napier's new paper over at cosmictusk.com. Whether "recent" numbers for comet impacts are normal over the long term or unusual is not known now.

That said, impact events do not affect chronologies, which are efforts by people to place events in time. Instead, impact events are a powerful tool for establishing chronologies.

I'm trying to recall the impact event of 4400 BCE which you mention, and pulling a blank (damn stroke). I may even have recovered records of it (see links below), but can not remember now. Please provide more information.

Charles Pope wrote:

From what I have read, the 1159 BC event was the most intense event since the YD event. Tree rings indicate virtually no growth (i.e., no harvests) for about 20 years! Other events, such as the 1628 BC and 3111 BC events, seem to have stunted growth for only about half as long.

What did you read? There does appear to be bronze age migrations around these times, and migrations in the Americas.

May I suggest that you start reading this list:

2000
Everything is Connected:
A survey of Man and impact in SE North America
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0904...

2001
Going Into the Water:
A survey of Man and impact
in the Eastern North American coastal zone and Caribbean
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0107...

2002
Impact And The End Of The Roman Empire In The West
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce0822...

SHORTER HISTORICAL ESSAYS AND NOTES
1997
Benny Peiser's initial catalogue of Holocene impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0528...

1998-2002
On the Joshua impact event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0320...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0325...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0330...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0121...
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0212...

1998
On the destruction of the Etruscan city of Volsinii by impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0430...

An Impact Event Recorded In Ainu Folklore
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc1028...

1999
The Song Of Ullikummi, a Hurrian account of the Tel Leilan impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0120...

Note on Karen Reiter's "Die Metalle im Alten Orient":
An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0209...

Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0315...

2000
Short note on sub-Roman impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0426...

Updated Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0702...

2001
Legends of a major South American impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0326...

2002
Worknotes On Man In The Ancient Near East And Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0417...

Background On The Kaali Lake Impact Event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0624...

2003
The Egyptian Book of the Celestial Cow
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...

and finally my book "Man and Impact in the Americas"

Enjoy!

Charles Pope wrote:

It also seems evident that archaeologists have minimized the severity of the 1159 BC event, because it doesn't make sense for something truly devastating to have occurred at that particular date within the accepted/standard chronology of ancient history.

As the archaeologists are just beginning to understand that recent impact events have occurred, they are not minimizing anything. It's simply that they do not know about them, and thus are left with a lot of unexplained data, which they come up with other explanations for. That said, they work hard on their chronologies, and those chronologies are not to be lightly tossed aside.

Charles Pope wrote:

However, my studies have indicated the need to radically shorten the historical timescale, even somewhat more than Velikovsky attempted to do. Yet, the precise amount of shortening wasn't obvious until I looked at 1159 BC. The 1159 BC event was not a hiccup, it was a huge belch that really shouldn't be ignored by polite society, yet somehow the fine-feathered folks still do. It is now clear what the correct date for the beginning of the dynastic era in Egypt actually was, and it was 1159 BC!

For impact and the founding of the 1st Dynasty of Egypt, see my essay here:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...

it was around 3,111 BCE.

Charles Pope wrote:

The crux of it is this: if the proper interval between the 1159 BC event and the 4400 BC event was really the same as the previous ones (7553, 10700, 13865 BC), then Houston we have a problem. Because it means that the next major disaster is due about now! The interval from 1159 BC to 2012 AD is about the same as those earlier ones.

I think you're trying to make the data fit your fear of 2012, trying to give that fear substance. As a matter of fact, the start date of the Mayan calendar was not known until recently, and their year 2012 could have been anywhere, including years already passed, and years beyond 2012. Google "mayan calendat" and "the correlation problem" and you'll see what I mean.

If you read my book you'll gain a better understanding of Mayan timekeeping, their world view, and their earlier religious beliefs and practices.

You have never considered that there may be multiple comet streams the Earth intersects, but just one. I have, but my role was simply to collect data.

The mechanics of the intersection of the Earth's orbit with nodes in a comet debris stream is not trivial math, where you just add one number again and again as a distance interval. It does not work that way - see the distance numbers I gave above for Comet Encke insections.

The person who runs the 2012 forum here:
http://2012forum.com/forum/index.php
has ideas similar to yours, but different.

Neither Houston nor Langley have a problem. The problem that NASA management in Washington has had for a long time is that they seriously underestimate the comet impact hazard, and this was due to a faulty estimate by one of the early pioneers in impact studies, Dr. David Morrison.

Again, as near as I know, there is no problem in 2012, but I am concerned about SW3 in 2022, and the impact of other small comet pieces which we have not found yet.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

epgrondine's picture
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18...

NASA has finally faced up to the data. This has been a 13 year struggle for me.

The only reward is that me and some of my friends efforts have contributed to saving millions of lives.

You might want to read my book:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...

and you can email me to get it for a lower price than through amazon. Or read it free through inter-library loan.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P., the NASA article is short and bittersweet, and worthy of Daily Grail attention for sure!! Possibly the WISE-est thing NASA has ever done! Congrats on your role in raising human consciousness of knock-out punches.

I will definitely be studying your interpretation of "THE BOOK OF THE CELESTIAL COW":
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...

I absolutely agree that it describes an impact event. It is also the source of both the Biblical Flood and Biblical Exodus stories. Here is my interpretation of the myth:
http://www.domainofman.com/book/tut-2.html

By the way, what do you make of Greg's article, "The God with the Upraised Arm"?
http://www.dailygrail.com/features/god-w...
Could Orion somehow be a cause (indirectly?) of cometary smiting?

I also noticed from another link you provided that most of the impact events of global consequence ("Class 10") were in fact in the Age of Taurus:

Class 10:
"A collision capable of causing global climatic catastrophe. Such events occur once per 100,000 years, or less often."

Observed:
ca. 3114 BCE - Atlantic impact; Battle of Titans(?), tsunami leading to flood myths, Stonehenge I begins, Mayan Calendar begins;
ca. 2345 BCE - Ullikummi cometary impactor pretty much wipes out Hurrians, dust loading leads to climate collapse;
ca. 2100 BCE - Rio Cuarto impactor and resulting climatic collapse;
ca. 1160 BCE - General migration in eastern Mediterranean follows report by observor from some distance away of loud noise and rush of air;
ca. 536 AD - Dust loading leads to sub-Roman times becoming sub-Roman.
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0315...

I'd really like to know if impact events cause uncertainly in tree-ring and ice-core analysis, and how much. When there is a major freeze or major drought, do multiple years get interpreted as only one? Conversely, if there is rapid heating and cooling within a single year (with multiple growth spurts), does that get mistaken for multiple years instead of one actual year? Are there disputes between tree-ring and ice-core experts on the exact number of years that should fill the gap between the 4400 BC and 1159 BC events? Personally, I hope the year numbers are fairly accurate. I really don't want there to be a recurring nightmare at ~3000 year intervals (and with one due in my own life time)! But it is what it is (at least until there is a CAPS program in place).

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P., the NASA article is short and bittersweet, and worthy of Daily Grail attention for sure!! Possibly the WISE-est thing NASA has ever done! Congrats on your role in raising human consciousness of knock-out punches.

I sure hope the editors post some of this to the news on a regular basis. Daily Grail readers will be enlightened as to some of the past's mysteries, and some of them may write their legislators about the impact hazard and the need to find the next asteroid or comet piece before it hits.

My only regrets are that I could not have done more, and produced a better book and sold more books. Stroke intervened. But on the other hand you are fortunate that I have time to correspond with you personally.

Charles Pope wrote:

I will definitely be studying your interpretation of "THE BOOK OF THE CELESTIAL COW":
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce1021...

I absolutely agree that it describes an impact event.

Thanks. I also hope that clear up the founding of the Egyptian 1st Dynasty for you, and when it occurred.

Charles Pope wrote:

It is also the source of both the Biblical Flood and Biblical Exodus stories. Here is my interpretation of the myth:
http://www.domainofman.com/book/tut-2.html

No, it is not the source for either. See Masse for the Flood story, or the Song of Ullikummi for a mention of the Flood impact mega-tsnunami.

Exodus may be placed exactly at 1628 BCE, the time of Ahmose I. Thera exploded then (we know this from tree rings) and Comet Encke appeared at the same time (Moses pillar of light, and the same year as Thunderbird Mound was built at Poverty Point).

As far as your piece goes, I think you would be better off understanding each myth system as an entity itself, then looking for physical evidence, then comparing them or looking for common ancient elements. But that is just my opinion.

Charles Pope wrote:

By the way, what do you make of Greg's article, "The God with the Upraised Arm"?
http://www.dailygrail.com/features/god-w...
Could Orion somehow be a cause (indirectly?) of cometary smiting?

Work with ancient constellations is beyond me now; I have to rely on others for it. (About my only interest now is in Shawnee constellations.)

I don't know if a comet came from that constellation's direction, and can not work it out know; or if Orion's rising marked the end of bombardment.

It is comforting to know that I am not alone in this.

My thinking is that once earlier constellations are known, then it will be possible to trace their development from earlier systems.

The Gobleki Tepe symbols are likely to be constellations.

Charles Pope wrote:

I also noticed from another link you provided that most of the impact events of global consequence ("Class 10") were in fact in the Age of Taurus:

Class 10:
"A collision capable of causing global climatic catastrophe. Such events occur once per 100,000 years, or less often."

Observed:
ca. 3114 BCE - Atlantic impact; Battle of Titans(?), tsunami leading to flood myths, Stonehenge I begins, Mayan Calendar begins;
ca. 2345 BCE - Ullikummi cometary impactor pretty much wipes out Hurrians, dust loading leads to climate collapse;
ca. 2100 BCE - Rio Cuarto impactor and resulting climatic collapse;
ca. 1160 BCE - General migration in eastern Mediterranean follows report by observor from some distance away of loud noise and rush of air;
ca. 536 AD - Dust loading leads to sub-Roman times becoming sub-Roman.
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0315...

That list needs to be revised. The Atlantic Impact occurs around the 1059 BCE encounter, exact date not known; the battle of the Titans most likely took place at 2360 BCE, and the Rio Cuarto impact certainly occurred then.

As I omitted the YD impacts, my list simply reflects the limits of the proto-historical records and geological research that had been done at the time.

I have been wrong before, and retain the right to be wrong now and in the future. I do as best I can. The important point here is that there have been many more impacts than we previously suspected, and it is important not to confuse them.

Charles Pope wrote:

I'd really like to know if impact events cause uncertainly in tree-ring and ice-core analysis, and how much. When there is a major freeze or major drought, do multiple years get interpreted as only one? Conversely, if there is rapid heating and cooling within a single year (with multiple growth spurts), does that get mistaken for multiple years instead of one actual year?

Little uncertainty in either. There are global samples, and the experts use very sophisticated technologies to avoid the problems you mention.

Charles Pope wrote:

Are there disputes between tree-ring and ice-core experts on the exact number of years that should fill the gap between the 4400 BC and 1159 BC events?

There are no major disputes between ice core and tree ring experts that I know of. What 4400 BCE event are you referring to?

Charles Pope wrote:

Personally, I hope the year numbers are fairly accurate. I really don't want there to be a recurring nightmare at ~3000 year intervals (and with one due in my own life time)!

Don't drink the 2012 kool-aide.

Charles Pope wrote:

But it is what it is (at least until there is a CAPS program in place).

The best thing to do is not to be afraid, but instead to write your legislator asking for better impactor detection systems in the country in which you live.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P, I should have said that the impact event preceding the dynastic period in Egypt was a source (rather than THE source) of the Biblcial Flood story. Obviously, there were other devastating floods that had taken place before it, and those events were also composited in the Biblical account.

The impact event preceding the dynastic period was also the primary source of the Biblical Exodus story. It set the precedent for the evacuation of Egypt that took place at the end of the Middle Kingdom. The Moses and Joshua of the Middle Kingdom were patterned after the Egyptian gods Re and Horus the Younger, respectively. The "divine pattern" involved the return to Egypt of Re, who found his authority disrespected and was urged to destroy mankind as well as rage against all the (other) gods of Egypt. The Flood event occurred, the Nile turned blood red (or beer red, if you will), the people were about to be extirminated, but "miraculously" some were "saved" when Re relented and Hathor/Sekhmet was called off. It's an obvious kernel for the Biblical account.

The 4400 BC event is listed by Robert Schoch as a known catastrophe (from a land meteorite strike) in his book "Voyages of the Pyramid Builders". My review of that book is here:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
See also:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
(There does seem to be wide variation in the dating of the Al'Amarah (Iraq) impact crater, and differing opinion as to whether it was part of a string of impacts.
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

I'm not advising anyone to panic over "2012 prophesies". It definitely has my attention though, and of course we should be aware that impact events can happen at any time, regardless. I definitely urge people to take some precautions. All valuable computer work should be backed up on CD's (rather than thumb drives). I need to be more diligent about that myself! It provides more protection during a solar storm. Have enough food and liquid on hand to deal with a power outage of at least a week.

Regarding historical dating, the standard/academic chronology must be totally discarded. It has become a huge hindrance. I don't care how much precious time has been invested in it. It's worse than worthless! No way did the so-called dynastic period begin in the 4th Century BC or even the 3rd. No way did the 4th Dynasty pharoahs build the Pyramids of Giza. At best they performed a refurbishment. Sorry I can't be more tolerant about that particular debate.

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Charles Pope wrote:

The 4400 BC event is listed by Robert Schoch as a known catastrophe (from a land meteorite strike) in his book "Voyages of the Pyramid Builders". My review of that book is here:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
See also:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
(There does seem to be wide variation in the dating of the Al'Amarah (Iraq) impact crater, and differing opinion as to whether it was part of a string of impacts.
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

It is interesting to see Schoch getting into the impact book business, just when his hypothesizd early Sphinx date fails.
With time, he'll manage to work it out.

This also explains the source of some of your ideas.

To start out, meteorites don't impact, but asteroids and comet fragments do. There was no one advanced race spreading pyramid building technology. In that idea of one advanced race lies the fascist aspect of cult archaeology.

The dating of the Sphinx is now known to date to Kahfre, and not the very early date proposed by Schoch. The Valley Temple strikes me as being earlier, and if it was painted, it may have been the Hall of Records.

The date of the Iraq crater is not known, but I covered it in my work notes (please read them). The possibility of it occurring at the time of the appearance of the Sumerians seems likely, as perhaps they just moved into the newly depopulated area.

Charles Pope wrote:

E.P, I should have said that the impact event preceding the dynastic period in Egypt was a source (rather than THE source) of the Biblical Flood story. Obviously, there were other devastating floods that had taken place before it, and those events were also composited in the Biblical account.

Yes, as there was more than one impact mega-tsunami, it is important not to confuse them. It is always better to work with closer source documents when possible rather than late ellided and confused accounts.

Charles Pope wrote:

The impact event preceding the dynastic period was also the primary source of the Biblical Exodus story. It set the precedent for the evacuation of Egypt that took place at the end of the Middle Kingdom. The Moses and Joshua of the Middle Kingdom were patterned after the Egyptian gods Re and Horus the Younger, respectively. The "divine pattern" involved the return to Egypt of Re, who found his authority disrespected and was urged to destroy mankind as well as rage against all the (other) gods of Egypt. The Flood event occurred, the Nile turned blood red (or beer red, if you will), the people were about to be exterminated, but "miraculously" some were "saved" when Re relented and Hathor/Sekhmet was called off. It's an obvious kernel for the Biblical account.

I'll disagree with you on that. What appears to have happened was an earthquake, which released a caustic lake which drained into the Nile, causing the plagues. A few years later Thera exploded in 1628 BCE. The Hyksos fall and leave.

To say that who Moses an Joshua were is hotly contested would be an understatement, with many holding that they did not exist at all. The Hyksos are still not well documented, and the relationship of Moses and Johua to them, if any at all, is not known

Even the relationship of the Storm Stela of Ahmose to the Thera eruption is contested.

Charles Pope wrote:

I'm not advising anyone to panic over "2012 prophesies". It definitely has my attention though, and of course we should be aware that impact events can happen at any time, regardless.

So is Schoch the source for your 2012 concerns?

Charles Pope wrote:

Regarding historical dating, the standard/academic chronology must be totally discarded...

I'll disagree. For example, Schoch uses ice core chronologies.

What impact events and volcanic eruptions do is allow the refinement of the older chronologies, and allow some precision in them.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

The reason I am so excited about this emerging discipline of Catastrophism is that it finally provides the amunition to blow away the standard/academic chronology!! So, your statement that impact data should only be used for making small refinements to the standard/academic chronology is extremely disappointing. It is a statement I would expect only from someone who has drank liberally from the academic kool aid punch bowl! (It's basically saying, let's take all this powerful new and non-negotiable information and force it to support our academic orthodoxy. Wow!)

My main sources for "dates of infamy" in ancient times are Robert Schoch and Paul LaViolette. Alexandra Bruce's new book "2012: Science or Superstition" also has a Table of Holocene Impacts (p 119). See discussion here:

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index....

By combining available formation I was able to detect a potential pattern in the catastrophe/impact data. Zecharia Sitchin has been promoting a 3,600 year cycle of destruction, however the "impact data" actually suggests there was (and possibly still is) disaster at about 3,150 year intervals.

A contributor at my web site further observed that the last "big one" in 1159 BC was synchronized with a Venus Transit pair. That raised another red flag (in that Venus transits are associated with doom in legend/myth).

I decided to google "2012 Schoch" and was surprised to learn that Robert was interviewed for a program on 2012 last November.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/for...
http://www.2012sos.net/2009/11/nbc-tackl...
http://www.syfy.com/2012/

He also speaks casually on the subject of 2012 here:

See video

Schoch does express concern over solar storms and their effect on modern day power grids and electronics. I'm wondering if Venus transits increase the probability of a coronal mass ejection (CME) being launched in the direction of Earth.

Schoch also actually states that according to his own researches, there very well could be a crossing of cometary debris around the 2015 timeframe! He calls this speculation, but not groundless speculation.

Regarding your pet Exodus theory, that sounds very much like the one presented by Simcha Jacobovici in "Exodus Decoded". I absolutely love his "Naked Archaelogy" series, but his take on the Exodus was a "mistake by the lake". See discussion here:

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

The reason I am so excited about this emerging discipline of Catastrophism is that it finally provides the ammunition to blow away the standard/academic chronology!! So, your statement that impact data should only be used for making small refinements to the standard/academic chronology is extremely disappointing. It is a statement I would expect only from someone who has drank liberally from the academic kool aid punch bowl! (It's basically saying, let's take all this powerful new and non-negotiable information and force it to support our academic orthodoxy. Wow!)

Charles, you don't even know the difference between catastrophism and neo-catastrophism. And your knowledge of chronologies is abysmal.

As regards chronologies, the situation is this: Prior to the advent of Carbon 14 dating, the only way that dates were established were from ancient astronomical records and strata. The problem was that astronomical phenomenon would recur, thus leading to high, middle, and low chronologies. What impacts and volcanic eruptions allow us to do is to figure out which of those chronologies is correct.

You obviously did not take the time to read on the correlation problem of the Mayan calendar, or you would not be rambling on about 2012.

As far as academic orthodoxy goes, I can tell you based on personal experience that it hurts to be on the cutting edge, as you bleed there. These cranks don't help at all - remember Eric Julien?

Charles Pope wrote:

My main sources for "dates of infamy" in ancient times are Robert Schoch and Paul LaViolette. Alexandra Bruce's new book "2012: Science or Superstition" also has a Table of Holocene Impacts (p 119).

I wonder how much of it he lifted from my own work, and then simply re-worked to fit his market. Did he bother to cite me in either his bibliography or footnotes?

Charles Pope wrote:

See discussion here:

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index....

By combining available formation I was able to detect a potential pattern in the catastrophe/impact data. Zecharia Sitchin has been promoting a 3,600 year cycle of destruction, however the "impact data" actually suggests there was (and possibly still is) disaster at about 3,150 year intervals.

It is interesting to watch all these old hands from the cult archeology circuit climb on the impact bandwagon, playing at being cometary astronomers, now trying to sell you all books on 2012. It is unfortunate that my stroke prevented me from putting "Man and Impact in the Americas" in better shape, and from completing "Man and Impact in the Ancient Near
East" and "Man and Impact in Europe".

It is also unfortunate that you have not read "Man and Impact in the Americas", Charles. I could use the money.

Charles Pope wrote:

A contributor at my web site further observed that the last "big one" in 1159 BC was synchronized with a Venus Transit pair. That raised another red flag (in that Venus transits are associated with doom in legend/myth).

I decided to google "2012 Schoch" and was surprised to learn that Robert was interviewed for a program on 2012 last November.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/for...
http://www.2012sos.net/2009/11/nbc-tackl...
http://www.syfy.com/2012/

He also speaks casually on the subject of 2012 here:

See video

Schoch does express concern over solar storms and their effect on modern day power grids and electronics. I'm wondering if Venus transits increase the probability of a coronal mass ejection (CME) being launched in the direction of Earth.

The gravitational effects of Venus on the Sun's nuclear reaction are probably too small to cause these. Why not write the Bad Astronomer and ask him. If anyone knows, he will.

Charles Pope wrote:

Schoch also actually states that according to his own researches, there very well could be a crossing of cometary debris around the 2015 timeframe! He calls this speculation, but not groundless speculation.

Having failed miserably in dating the Sphinx, Schoch is now a cometary astronomer - what a surprise.

Charles Pope wrote:

Regarding your pet Exodus theory, that sounds very much like the one presented by Simcha Jacobovici in "Exodus Decoded". I absolutely love his "Naked Archaelogy" series, but his take on the Exodus was a "mistake by the lake". See discussion here:

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=3684

[/quote]

You may view it as my pet Exodus theory, but in point of fact it is factual, working as usual with primary contemporary documents, archaeological data, and geological data.

The "Exodus" aspect is secondary literature, earlier source(s) unknown.

Now I'm going to tell you again what I told you earlier:
Comet Schwassmann Wachmann 3 will be in the inner solar system in late 2011, but dont' drink the kool aid, as it will be well away from Earth. SW3 will come in again in 2017, and few worries that time.

But the 2022 SW3 encounter may have consequences.

And I'm going to tell you again what I told you earlier:
Stop reading this secondary scare crap, and read my earlier work notes (they are free via the net), and then read my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewto...

Finally, if you want to do something useful, write your legislators and tell them you want the amount of money spent on asteroid and comet detection increased.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P.,

You whine about no one paying attention to impact events and you whine about the few people that are getting interested. I don't plan on buying your book. It's obvious you are just another fuddy-duddy that thinks they know something. Why don't you buy Schoch's book and find out for yourself what he says. Or if you're that broke, just go to the nearest bookstore and read it "in situ".

Low, Middle, and High Chronologies, they are all bogus. You are out to lunch man. This is an esoteric and alternative site. We like science, but we don't trust condescending scientists (like you). I'll give you a break and chalk it up to your stroke. So, here's my advice to you - get some rest, and let someone with fresh perspective carry on the thankless job of saving the planet.

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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

You whine about no one paying attention to impact events and you whine about the few people that are getting interested.

I've been at this for 13 years. I spent a lot of time working on what hit when.

Schoch is about as useless as Eric Julien.

Charles Pope wrote:

I don't plan on buying your book.

Then read the free links, and read my book for free through inter-library loan.

Charles Pope wrote:

It's obvious you are just another fuddy-duddy that thinks they know something. Why don't you buy Schoch's book and find out for yourself what he says.

For the same reasons I don't waste my time with a lot of peoples' nonsense. Now if it was Andrew Collins or Robert Temple, I'd be on it in a minute.

Charles Pope wrote:

Or if you're that broke, just go to the nearest bookstore and read it "in situ".

I'll probably just wait for the scathing professional commentary.

Charles Pope wrote:

Low, Middle, and High Chronologies, they are all bogus.

In your opinion

Charles Pope wrote:

You are out to lunch man. This is an esoteric and alternative site. We like science, but we don't trust condescending scientists (like you).

You are confusing yourself with everyone else here, and if you want to talk about condescending... look in the mirror.
(PS - I was esoteric and alternative before you were born.)

Charles Pope wrote:

I'll give you a break and chalk it up to your stroke. So, here's my advice to you - get some rest, and let someone with fresh perspective carry on the thankless job of saving the planet.

That's already been done. Take a look at the George Brown Jr Amendment to the NASA charter (2005). The only problem now is getting NASA to carry out the instructions of the Congress.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

daydreamer's picture
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Hi EP,

I still haven't gone back to my textbooks on this subject. I remember lying on my back one drunken night and staring up at the sky. Suddenly there was a bright light that filled a football sized circle in the sky. It flashed and then faded slowly over 5-10 seconds or so. Shooting stars are obviously not uncommon either.

The Earth is getting hit continuously. I remember reading once that we are struck by something of a reasonable size every few decades. Most hit water of course, but the increasing population density mean that the chances of a city being hit are increasing. Low odds on London or New York or Washington of course, but ever present odds.

It is not hard to find craters of a good size representing impacts every 30 years or so. Small material lands daily - though generally not in your living room, though again it is not hard to find stories of peoples houses being hit by meteorites.

Since it is already widely known that we could lose a city any day and never be able to stop it, never mind a village here or small town there. What is the jist of this conversation? A detected cyclical bombardment?

It has gotten a little in depth to be able to tell what the overall point is.

(is catastrophism being referred to with regard to the Egyptians specifically?)

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E.P.,

So, you've been at it a whopping 13 years! Congratulations, but the Universe is unimpressed. Have you been kissing Benny's butt that long too? Maybe he can spare some change for a panhandler! Sorry 2012 came a little early for you, but hey, maybe you're the lucky one.

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

E.P.,

So, you've been at it a whopping 13 years! Congratulations, but the Universe is unimpressed. Have you been kissing Benny's butt that long too? Maybe he can spare some change for a panhandler! Sorry 2012 came a little early for you, but hey, maybe you're the lucky one.

Hi Charles -

Dr. Peiser originally formed the Cambridge Conference mailing list from 80 people who had attended a conference of the Society for Inter-Disciplinary Studies held at Cambridge.

I had been working alone on impacts for one year before I was pointed in Benny's direction by my acquaintance archaeologist Payson Sheets, the excavator of Ceren, the Pompei of the Americas, at a meeting of the American Anthropological Association held in Washington, DC.

I began reporting for him, and from that point on the Cambridge Conference grew to 800 of the world's top specialists in impact, including paleoclimatologists.

Benny took the Cambridge Conference completely over to AGW scepticism in January, 2004. Which is fine, but first he would not consider the ozone holes. Second, it left impact researchers without a clearing house. Third, he would later sell out minor impact research for endorsement of AGW scepticism. Forth, he would engage in political propaganda instead of science.

Personally, it left me without a way to raise awareness of my book within the impact community for too long.

While the YD impacts are now known, few know of the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami, and fewer still understand how impacts led the Maya to such bizarre behaviors, or their effects on other peoples in the Americas.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

epgrondine's picture
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Hi Charles - this is a humor piece I wrote for the Cambridge Conference many years ago. I hope you enjoy it.

2012: WWMD? What Would the Maya Do?

What would the Maya (Classic and Post Classic, not today's Maya, who think the 2012 nonsense is gringo craziness) do in 2012?

That's easy: sacrifice a lot of people to prevent a ts'oc (tz'uk) impact event from occurring in the next time period.

AN EXTREMELY LOW COST APPROACH TO DEALING WITH THE NEO HAZARD

Hello Benny -

In recent weeks we have been greeted with repeated announcements of the reduction in funds available to NEO (Near Earth Object) programs, as governments whose revenues are coming under stress due to the economic slowdown seek to economize. In view of these developments, which trend is likely to continue for at least the next couple of years, perhaps it is time to re-consider the use of the
ancient Mayan technique for dealing with the hazard of asteroid and comet impact, specifically that of human sacrifice.

Now many in the scientific community may scoff at the idea and dismiss it out of hand, but as the Mayan priests pointed out, once they began human sacrifice, they were never again pounded by the sky gods. So by inductive demonstration, the technique appears to work. It has the further advantage
of being an extremely low cost scheme to put into operation, as it requires no payment for any telescopes, electronic devices, computers, or staff, and even less payment for the bureaucrats who manage these programs.

Of course, one does run into the problem of obtaining human sacrificial victims. While the Mayan resolved this problem by sacrificing their unwanted, literally their poor bastards, given the current economic conditions and the prevalence of extra-marital sex, such a plan may not gain
wide public support today. But perhaps a ready solution to this problem may lie immediately at hand, specifically, in the use of lawyers as human sacrificial victims.

To my knowledge I do not believe that anyone in the NEO community has ever previously considered the use of lawyers for this purpose. What advantages does the use of lawyers as human sacrificial victims bring, aside from the fact that there appears to be an over-abundant supply of them? Well, first off, they seem to be universally despised, and this seems to be true in every nation. Given the international scope of the NEO effort, it is nice to find a common point about which the citizens of most nations can agree.

Second, lawyers could easily be captured for this purpose by the simple technique of placing a newspaper advertisement seeking an attorney for a lawsuit against a wealthy corporation. Once obtained, my understanding is
that lawyers may usually be sedated by the administration of flavored alcoholic beverages.

Of course, one problem with the plan may lie in ripping their beating hearts out out of their living bodies, as it is widely reported that lawyers have no hearts. On the other hand, it is also widely reported that lawyers have no feelings, and this may make the entire process somewhat easier to accomplish, in the case that lawyers can indeed be found who have hearts.

In the case where it does turn out that lawyers indeed do not have hearts, then that does not necessarily mean that the scheme of using human sacrifice to fend off the next asteroid or comet impact must be abandoned. It is still possible that the scheme could be realized by the use of government bureaucrats instead.

Yours in science,
EP

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

epgrondine's picture
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daydreamer wrote:

Hi EP,

Since it is already widely known that we could lose a city any day and never be able to stop it, never mind a village here or small town there.

Hi daydreamer - We can stop the small ones (up to Tunguska class) with non-nuclear means if we can just find them early enough. That's what Congress told NASA to do, and the former Administrator ignored their instructions. That's why I tell people to write.

daydreamer wrote:

What is the jist of this conversation? A detected cyclical bombardment?

That is exactly the problem. While some cometrary fragment bombardments appera to be "cyclical", the problem is establishing those cycles accurately. Abusing the data to tie it in to 2012 fears doesn't help that process, and if the confusion continues the result is going to harm real efforts to deal with this problem.

daydreamer wrote:

It has gotten a little in depth to be able to tell what the overall point is.

(is catastrophism being referred to with regard to the Egyptians specifically?)

The field of studying the effects of impacts and volcanic eruptions on man is known as neo-catastrophism, to differentiate it from earlier abysmal work done by several people.

If it were Andrew Collins, Robert Temple, or Phillip Coppens working with the Egyptian impact materials it would likely be to the good. I lost my ability to work with those materials in my stroke.

If you will simply read the links I pointed you to, what I did was about the best work that was done. I hope somebody good will take it up.

You can read "Man and Impact in the Americas" for free via inter-library loan, if you live in the US.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P., you do about as much harm as good by having your pet alternative researchers while also touting the academic party line with regard to chronology. When I say I can't tolerate it, this is not condescension, it is from the perspective of the lay person, and one who has NOT acquired a taste for academic bull crap. I'm disgusted by academic culture, which is why I developed my own model of ancient history and chronology. My model can accommodate something particularly nasty happening circa 1159 BC. The academic model cannot and has to dismiss that event as being relatively minor. I'm not saying my model is perfect, but it is infinitely better than the "woolly mammoth" academia has created (and continues to feed), and which will require a veritable "extinction event" to wipe out.

The WISE satellite has been up and running for all of a few months, and yet you are ready to dismiss all possibility of a disaster in 2012? I hope we all survive whatever "stroke" is on the event horizon, whether in 2012 or 2015 or 2022 or 2028 or whenever. The currrent fixation on 2012 is a good thing. I don't think there is necessarily just a collective sigh of relief in 2013 or just a mocking of 2012 researchers if nothing happens. We build on the momentum the 2012 movement has created and use it to actually bring about changes in both science and consciousness.

Get well soon!

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

My model can accommodate something particularly nasty happening circa 1159 BC. The academic model cannot and has to dismiss that event as being relatively minor.

Charles, some academics, particularly those involved with neo-catastrophism, noted the ca. 1159 BCE encounters years ago. They had even published years ago. You are simply unaware of their work.

Charles Pope wrote:

The WISE satellite has been up and running for all of a few months, and yet you are ready to dismiss all possibility of a disaster in 2012?

From what I know now, the year 2012 holds no extraordinary threat. You'd probably enjoy this forum:

http://2012forum.com/forum/index.php

I studied where some of these alternative and esoteric guys came from and how they operate in some depth. (I've even written a little piece on it - free via email for now, so send me a message.)

From what I know, the year to worry about is 2022, when we intersect SW3's debris stream.

Charles Pope wrote:

The current fixation on 2012 is a good thing. I don't think there is necessarily just a collective sigh of relief in 2013 or just a mocking of 2012 researchers if nothing happens. We build on the momentum the 2012 movement has created and use it to actually bring about changes in both science and consciousness.

Get well soon!

Charles, I'll just have to differ with you. I think what will happen is that bad research into catastrophes will damage good research into catastrophes. Now maybe examining comet impacts in relation to 2012 will cause some people to stumble into good comet impact research, but more than likely what will happen is it will damage it further.

It happened before with Velikovsky, and getting rid of the pall he cast over research into ancient catastrophes has taken decades.

That's why I prefer that Andrew Collins, Robert Temple, or Phillip Coppens do the work rather than Schoch. See:

2000
On the effects of Pissing on the Sphinx
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc0126...

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

epgrondine's picture
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http://cosmictusk.com/

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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E.P., so, you're really not a scientist but actually just an unemployed "veteran science reporter". You're brain damaged but want us to help you get back on the road? We don't need another NEO on the loose!

You are also proud of Robert Temple for making a jerk of himself in his latest book? Not surprising. Even Philip Coppens had issues with Temple's "Sphinx Mystery". (Who's your favorite now?) I'm a Temple fan myself, but he defintely went assynchronous in his latest alternative offering:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.c...

The link to your "pissing article" is no longer posted. But I suppose you think you have pissed on Schoch all the same, and that your ideas about comets don't really stink either.

And you had to bring up Velikovsky! Are "Rock Stars" so insecure that they had to rename their discipline in order to distance themselves from Velikovsky? Today's Physicists aren't referred to as neo-Physicists, are they? How many hair-brained ideas have there been (and still are) in the field of Physics (or any other field)?

Rock-a-Bye-Bye.

earthling's picture
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Mr Pope, you are acting more than a little immature.

----
We are the cat.

epgrondine's picture
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earthling wrote:

Mr Pope, you are acting more than a little immature.

I even pointed Charles to a site where others were thinking along his lines, and instead going there, and finding out what they were thinking, he just refers back to his own site. And the insults come and come...

Now one has to ask why Charles does this? The answer lies in some emotional need that Schoch satisfies for him and the other people participating in his forum... note especially the completely bogus chronology there, and its use to frame the Old Testament... its the religious aspects of his site show its roots in cult archaeology particularly well.

The link to my earlier comment on the "weathering" of the Sphinx still works. I hope it brings you a good laugh, earthling. Thanks for the moral support.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
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Comets and asteroids are more than a little rude too! So, why should we be so polite about the subject? Or do you prefer more sensitivity in a Catastrophist? E.P. has been hitting on us, so let's see if he can take a meteor shower. He thinks 2012 is a hoax. He thinks Robert Schoch is a hoax. I don't know, maybe E.P.'s fund raiser is a hoax.

E.P. is sadly a commentary on civilization itself. We wait until the very end to suddenly be concerned about what is really important. We wait until it's too late.

earthling's picture
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Well, thinking of the future and also the present, it might be wise to consider that what we write here is public, and is being read by many people. It is being archived somewhere. People will form opinions about us based on what we write here.

Personally I think the 2012 business is hokey, but that's just my opinion. We'll see.

----
We are the cat.

Charles Pope's picture
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Earthling, we can only hope human beings are doing something, anything worth archiving!

I come to the Daily Grail to get information and share information. E.P. is obviously only interested in sharing (i.e., promoting his book). He doesn't think I have anything to offer him (other than maybe some cash). That's fine, I'm used to being ignored. I haven't pimped my own research out (at least for money), consequently I get no respect from either the academic or alternative crowd.

If I just had a stroke, I probably wouldn't be interested in learning anything new either. It's understandable. I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the situation. Yet, the guy seems to know so much about hoaxes. That's suspicious.

Also, I'm perplexed how a person like E.P. could be so committed to something as counter-culture as impact science, yet also be so committed to the academic status quo in other areas? I suspect he was that way before the stroke as well. And I suspect his arrogance and dismissiveness comes from hanging around academics/scientists and trying to be accepted by them. It happens. I can't say I've never fronted before. Alright then, group hug.

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I've been following this interchange hoping to gain a little insight. I also am a regular reader on your site Charles. I can understand your frustration here and might add that it takes all kinds and each with individual personalities. Mix in a little ego and the inteligent dicussion ends and another begins. We all have something to offer and it is vital that people listen and not discard, as academics are quick to do, or we all suffer the same consequence.
I personaly feel something will happen at the end of 2011, but whether it is of a vibrational change or a catastrophy remains to be seen and or felt. One thing we can't deny is the amount of great impacts that have occured on this planet.
So in a way I can see where EP is comming from although could not understand why he was so swift in discarding any of your work, or Schocks for that matter.
Anyway, disagreement is not all bad if there is a grounding for it. I might just join that group hug of yours.

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

epgrondine's picture
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thefloppy1 wrote:

I've been following this interchange hoping to gain a little insight. I also am a regular reader on your site Charles. I can understand your frustration here and might add that it takes all kinds and each with individual personalities. Mix in a little ego and the inteligent dicussion ends and another begins. We all have something to offer and it is vital that people listen and not discard, as academics are quick to do, or we all suffer the same consequence.
I personaly feel something will happen at the end of 2011, but whether it is of a vibrational change or a catastrophy remains to be seen and or felt. One thing we can't deny is the amount of great impacts that have occured on this planet.
So in a way I can see where EP is comming from although could not understand why he was so swift in discarding any of your work, or Schocks for that matter.
Anyway, disagreement is not all bad if there is a grounding for it. I might just join that group hug of yours.

Hi floppy -

I read through nearly all the surviving Mayan contact era literature in the University of Virginia's collection while doing impact research. What the Chilam Balam spoke of then was a return of the Mayan people to dignity in 2012.

The appearance of Schwassmann Wachmann 3 on the other side of our solar system in 2011 will give us a good warning to get ready for the 2022 encounter with its debris stream. It will also make more people understand some of the ancient Mayan peoples "unusual" religious practices, long since renounced by the Mayan peoples themselves.

I hope this provides you with some comfort.

I used to know some Egyptian chronology very very well, and still remember enough of it to know that Schoch's is wrong. How Schoch's work fit into what might be understood by some as "theosophist" beliefs is known to me as well.

I also did a little OT research as well (see link to OT chronology given above), and remember enough to form a rapid opinion.

PS - I still think the Valley Temple may have been the Hall of Records.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

thefloppy1's picture
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11 weeks 4 days

I do feel an amount of concern regarding Impacts. I also am aware that many have taken place over a few million years or so. Each of these impacts have been enough to take away our life as we know it.

I am curious about a comet that exploded, I think in 1996, near it's sun pass and it was one we watched, a couple of years ago, as fragments. Now these fragments, quiet large, passed our plane approximatly 3 weeks in front of us. If this comet did not explode when it did, would it of been on time to hit earth full on. I wish I could remember it's name but I am sure you would know which one I am talking about.
May even be the one you have mentioned in your reply to my post.

PS. if the valley temple was the "Hall of Records", it wasn't hidden or protected very well. My understanding is that the Hall of Records was cleverly discissed or hidden.
Who was it again that ordered some dude in the old testement to go and recover the writtings of Thoth/Hermes?
Some 2000 bce. My memory sucks some times.

"Life can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you do what your told."
LRF.

epgrondine's picture
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23 October 2006
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8 weeks 6 days
Charles Pope wrote:

I come to the Daily Grail to get information and share information. E.P. is obviously only interested in sharing (i.e., promoting his book).

Charles, I've been coming to the Daily Grail for many years to get information on impact news and unusual archaeological finds and theories, for coverage of psycho-active chemical issues, and for other materials ignored by mainstream media.
I have found the DG moderators to be excellent spotters of that kind of information.

Charles Pope wrote:

He doesn't think I have anything to offer him (other than maybe some cash). That's fine, I'm used to being ignored. I haven't pimped my own research out (at least for money), consequently I get no respect from either the academic or alternative crowd.

Charles, the information I gathered on impacts was so valuable that I gave it to the scientists for free immediately after I gathered it, rather than writing it up and selling it. That's one of the reasons why the Cambridge Conference grew from 80 readers to 800.

On the topic of money, when you average impact deaths over time, it ends up as 1 per minute and a half. And its not just you I am writing this for.

My book will probably never turn a profit, given the amount of money it took to assemble the materials in it. But on the other hand the Congress of the United States, House and Senate, passed the George Brown Jr amendment to NASA's charter, and Obama and his new NASA Administrator Charles Bolden will be carrying out their instructions. The budget for impactor detection was increased by $16 million this year. That will help to save some lives.

While I know with certainty that your Egyptian chronology is way off, I tried to point you to another forum where you could share and work on your ideas with others.

Charles Pope wrote:

If I just had a stroke, I probably wouldn't be interested in learning anything new either. It's understandable. I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the situation. Yet, the guy seems to know so much about hoaxes. That's suspicious.

Charles, I live in Kempton, Illinois, and I know the cult archaeology business inside and out, and its sources running back to the early 1800's.

Greg knows that Dan Brown got some of his ideas from David Hatcher Childress, who got them from sources he never bothered to cite.

Charles Pope wrote:

Also, I'm perplexed how a person like E.P. could be so committed to something as counter-culture as impact science, yet also be so committed to the academic status quo in other areas? I suspect he was that way before the stroke as well. And I suspect his arrogance and dismissiveness comes from hanging around academics/scientists and trying to be accepted by them. It happens. I can't say I've never fronted before. Alright then, group hug.

Charles, not only do I have to answer to every geologist, NEO astronomer, archaeologist, and paleo-climatologist for my work and words, I have to answer to every Shawnee, Lenape, Ojibwe, Six Nations, Creek, Choctaw, Chicasa, Cherokee, Natchez, and every other people that what I passed on is correct and that I have shared nothing that was not meant to be shared. No one passes on traditions for money.

As far as my stroke goes, my own Shawnee heritage played a large role in the diabetes that led to it. Having to argue with NASA scientists about the danger from cometary impact versus the danger from asteroid impact did not help. Neither did vicious hacker attacks by manned Mars nuts who think we have nothing better to spend $100 billion on than flying a few men to Mars.

What started this was my comment that you did not know the difference between neo-catastrophism and catastrophism. For that matter you do not know the difference between coherent catastrophism and catastrophism. With time perhaps you'll learn.

Tecumseh said do not bother a man about his religion, and Tecumseh was known for his wisdom. I tried to point you to others who held beliefs similar to yours. Mine are simply different than yours, and let's leave it at that.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

earthling's picture
Member since:
22 November 2004
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6 weeks 2 days

Unrelated to the ancient history timeline stuff, I was thinking about the more important (to the living) aspect of impact on future history.

Probably NASA is the wrong agency for this. Their budget is unreliable, their goals fickle (because of the budget), and politicians and the public don't take NASA seriously. And the impacting rocks in space are not glamorous enough.

The right agencies to consider past and future impact are the USGS and NOAA. The subject matter is within their expertise, in particular the consequences of impacts. These agencies actually get things done in terms of collecting and evaluating data. They have a solid reputation, and stable budgets - they are important to the economy. They don't need to be in the rocket launching business for the analysis.

----
We are the cat.

epgrondine's picture
Member since:
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earthling wrote:

Unrelated to the ancient history timeline stuff, I was thinking about the more important (to the living) aspect of impact on future history.

Probably NASA is the wrong agency for this. Their budget is unreliable, their goals fickle (because of the budget), and politicians and the public don't take NASA seriously. And the impacting rocks in space are not glamorous enough.

The right agencies to consider past and future impact are the USGS and NOAA. The subject matter is within their expertise, in particular the consequences of impacts. These agencies actually get things done in terms of collecting and evaluating data. They have a solid reputation, and stable budgets - they are important to the economy. They don't need to be in the rocket launching business for the analysis.

Hi Earthling -

NASA is exactly the right agency for this, as finding these things and stopping them from hitting will take space based telescopes and payloads launched by our largest rockets. So the US Congress decided, and in my opinion wisely so.

Everyone knows about the lobbying in DC, but at a minimum, the Representatives and Senators do not want to see their voters killed, as that will be the end of their "lifestyles" as well.

USGS work on past impacts came to nearly a stop when Gene Shoemaker died in a car accident while doing field research in Australia. Personally, I know several impact specialists who have been waiting for several years for USGS cores from the Carolina's.

NOAA handles the weather and water, and they have their hands full just with that, and have no expertise with any of this.

The public is taking this seriously, and NASA is now doing what the Congress told it to do. Doing that work is going to be pretty "glamorous", if by that you mean dangerous and gutsy.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

earthling's picture
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22 November 2004
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6 weeks 2 days

I don't know, NASA has a habit of doing things in fits and starts. Projects stop for years, at the whim of political decisions. Putting all their eggs in the Shuttle basket was a real problem. Their partners in the ISS effort can't rely on NASA schedules.

I'm not so sure about the public's enthusiasm about this, hard to measure. And politics is very short sighted. Things would work better if the effort did not rely on glamour.

----
We are the cat.

Greg's picture
Member since:
30 April 2004
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4 hours 29 min

Charles, you need to take a step back. Your comments are infringing our rule of no personal attacks. Please restrict any further posts to debating points of argument.

Kind regards,
Greg
-------------------------------------------
You monkeys only think you're running things
@DailyGrail

Charles Pope's picture
Member since:
23 October 2009
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1 hour 38 min

Greg, I have a problem with someone playing the hoax card while at the same time trying to sell me something. That pushed my buttons for sure.

The 2012 phenomenon has similarities with that of the DaVinci Code, especially in the ability to polarize. I know you've taken some criticism for riding that coat tail, but those of us that know your passion for the esoteric certainly respect that decision and see nothing wrong with it. That is what we live for! We would have thought it strange if you had written off Dan Brown as some kind of scam artist and told everybody not to buy his books (and then suggested they buy some autographed book of yours on Esoterica instead).

epgrondine's picture
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Charles Pope wrote:

Greg, I have a problem with someone playing the hoax card while at the same time trying to sell me something. That pushed my buttons for sure.

First off, I gave you links to free readings of the initial reports I provided to the scientists working in impact studies. Second, I told you how to read my book for free.

As far as the cult archaeology industry goes, I know it inside and out. I formed my own opinions as to whose work to trust among the authors, and whose not to.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Charles Pope's picture
Member since:
23 October 2009
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1 hour 38 min

I have to say you've made an impact.