Floppy starting something here that is I think a fascinating subject.
orginal thread here: http://dailygrail.com/node/2615
Kicking off the action:
Floppy said: could our thoughts actually create a situation where this can happen? Because the events are so terrible there would be a very large part of the population thinking of these events.
E N said: If time also evolves in a similar way, then we will keep finding ourselves in repeating locations, but like the physical world, it will be a localised similarity within the frame of a larger, changing, environment.
I dont have much reason to think that the mind effects this as just observing these states will allow us to experience these reacurrances, coincidences and harmonic 'incidents', but if quantum physics is saying that all states only exist in potential until observed, it would suggest that we need to observe these circles and spirals in time and space for them to manifest.
Maybe cause and effect are a little like time and space, actually the same thing but only seperated by our measurements of them.
Earthling said: All of what we "see" is an interpretation, as opposed to an objective observation. [...]
She sees the kind of things she expects, and I see other things. To her, the stuff that I see plainly does not exist.
I tend to believe that these things are patterns that we look for, and that we find. Mostly because we have a built-in need to find patterns, and we are also blind to many things that don't fit our pattern-matching minds.
Floppy said: So if events were to repeat in a sort of time loop but the raw materials to produce the effect were different then the outcome would be similar but circumstances are different. [...]
It just seems to me to be strange how events that are observed or shown to many seem to be closely followed by similar events. This to me hints of a powerful collective thought process. The initial event may have been caused by a number of adverse conditions leading up to it but after this the thoughts of many thinking and talking about the event has some how triggered another event of similar magnitude.
Some say we create our own reality…….if this is so then the collective could create the collective reality.
Colette said: I think in some ways we do create our own reality, but the unexpected, like the goaring in another little town, that is hard to explain...
E N said: Another thought I had was if the universe were more like an expanding spiral, which would give us universal overlaps, rather than an expanding 'balloon' model which leaves the past behind. Time overlaps could occur in an increasingly localised way, i.e. from clusters of galaxies through individual galactic rotation to solar system orbits and electrons. (If you had an infinite number of possible locations for an electron along its orbit, it would still complete a whole orbit cycle but be able to slightly adjust its return position, for ever ? !)
I do however like the idea of collective consciousness as it would be an aid to survival. I believe that conscious thoughts can effect our DNA and literally program it for future generations, based on our observations and perceived future needs. It would be wonderful to find a process of communicating this survival information beyond the self and beyond our ability to express it via the senses.
Anon said: Malcolm Gladwell put numbers to this theory in "The Tipping Point" where he elaborates on the economists' 80/20 Principle, which is the idea that in any situation roughly 80 percent of the "work" will be done by 20 percent of the participants. In most societies, 20 percent of criminals commit 80 percent of crimes. Twenty percent of motorists cause 80 percent of all accidents, 20% of all beer drinkers drink 80% of all beer. When it comes to thoughts affecting situations, perhaps the same percentages apply?
Floppy said: did read once that it would take 8% of the worlds population to all think of the same outcome at the same time to produce that desired outcome.
Colette said:I think we are looking at the goaring and the unusual things and the oddities of life that happen , that in a way are great markers of time and life changing in some degrees as they affect history..........
Floppy said: I still feel there needs to be a critical mass...ie: enough people with the same or very similar thoughts.
Stan said: What each of us decides now about what we see in the world and which can lead to understanding better who we are, which can lead to a particular quality of action or "doing" - may determine the outcome of this period.
So, diving in on some of these points above - do collective thoughts create situations?
Look around the world.
We can see our thoughts made manifest. “Energy follows thought” according to some so therefore perhaps we must address the quality of our thoughts and who or what has the monopoly on what kinds of thoughts dominate. To do that we need to do so as to get as close to a purity of thought as is possible: i.e. discern lies from truth.
The quality of the manifesting situation is dependent on the quality of the thought that is translated into action which in turn is dependent on our level of awareness connected to the accumulation of information activated by the action into knowledge. (Does that work or this? If not this, then that). So from this we already know that the quality and intent of our emotional, mental response is the key to the action and the net result.
A terrible event leaves a psychic marker right? If you have lost a loved one in an accident you feel the pain deeply rooted. If you have experienced intense fear the instinct and associated feelings leave you, but it is imprinted. You can empathize (If you are of that “configuration”) A shock can traumatize and it can also rearrange like an electrical shock to the system. Shocks can be beneficial.
Electrical storms charge the atmosphere. A lightening strike changes the immediate Environment. An imprint. So too a new thought – an illumination. Take away the physical components of an ancient building or a special place in nature and you have only the atmosphere remaining. Perhaps thoughts and events “charge” the atmosphere that is in turn filled by a process of feedback from those same physical components that have been proven to “soak up” emotional events like a tape recorder. An imprint is left on the magnetic field. So too then the physical body/mind of the individual.
Perhaps then individuals can be “charged” through voluntary shocks to their system that “purifies” enough towards a greater ability to SEE - to become a “seer” – discerning lies from truth which can often be shocking going directly to our inculcated beliefs which are in turn sourced from the reality which is often entirely subjective and enforced, rather than objective and free. So how to free ourselves from belief and comfort zones of thought that we think protect us when in fact they imprison us? Knowledge applied and shared. Would a mother and father happily send off their son or daughter to war in Iraq when they knew the objective facts behind the Bush Junta's decisions? If they chose to see? Very probably not. Decisions would be made and lies rejected - reality changed imprints of those changes made manifest. Thus it becomes important to disseminate information that it may be transformed into knowledge.
So, collective thought. Collective thought is just that – collective thought – an archetypal pool from which can pick up all kinds of synchronous and anomalous activity. It can help and it can hinder. An event I think, can be triggered given the right environmental circumstances, the correct matching imprint perhaps across dimensions or densities which could explain some manifestations of strange apparitions or beings. So, what would it mean if a collective network sought not to change this reality or to force one’s thought on others, but to CREATE and align ourselves to a New reality of our own making? “The trigger points” that Floppy mentioned are created as a continuum. And "grooved" by all in different ways and degrees, on our own yet clustered together in a like-minded approach.
Perhaps this is the Great Alchemical secrets of the past? Turning lead into gold is the holy grail within ourselves that is the accumulation of sufficient "contact potential difference" combined in a network to produce a quantum leap.
Gurdjieff alluded to the same thing when he talked about accrueing a "substance." Castaneda's Don Juan character talked of creating an "assemblage point" and Mouravieff the "magnetic centre." Yet this required energy cannot be maintained and sustained with effort which comes also from cultivating positive emotions while facing and understanding the darkness.
So why do we repeat things? Look through history as humanity interacts with the land and his psyche. Domination and suppression. War and peace. Inclusivity and exclusivity. We repeat things that offer perceived benefits. We learn by rote from our parents, from our peers we learn through taste, touch, smell, sight and sound – the wholly reliable senses for the infant – the wholly unreliable senses for the adult. Perhaps we are destined to transcend these limitations. However something prevents us moving beyond those limits. We learn through trauma, through hurt and fear. We learn what is nice and what is not nice. We learn to not go to the places in ourselves that harbour these wounds. Paradoxically the abused repeat the cycle generationally. The abused so often becomes the abuser as that is what sh/e knows. It has been imprinted into the mind/body complex.
The same for societies. The same for nations. The same for world-views. The question is – which world-view dominates? Which cycle, which pattern and which reflection of the past reflects into our present and dicates a singular future? The pendulum swings in a particular direction only insofar it has the required force to keep it swinging. A minute adjustment can create massive change in its trajectory. (strange attractor) The Butterfly effect also comes to mind. Observation and potential require sufficient oscillation and amplitude to CREATE results. Potential is manifested bringing us back to quality of thought. Potential is still-born most of the time. Observing as an action offers choices as to which way to go. To potente or not to potente...
Depending on the intensity of the observing i.e. how present are we in that moment? Is there in fact no Time but an expansion of the present offering us “time” to potentialise? Or to “charge” ourselves? If so how to get the requisite energy to accumulate sufficient awareness? How nany of us can stop the circulating thoughts for a moment and just be in the moment fully and completely? This is certainly difficult for me.
I want to quote from my own post to Richard a while back on the theory – and it is only a theory, although a compelling one - that suggests the fluidity of reality is very real but that it requires effort of a particular kind:
“Take the theory of Quantum tunneling. You have the classical picture of an electron that is repelled by an electric field just as long as the energy of the electron is below that of the energy level of the field. In the quantum theory the wave function of the electron meets this electric field but there is a possibility of tunneling through, though it is a finite possibility. You might remember this is the basis for transistors. Indeterminism is the main feature of this theory in that the electron as wave is raw uncertainty without any kind of measurement. Only when the observation is made then the possibilities are forced into an actuality via this measurement i.e. the wave function collapses. If quantum entities (us) are part of this quantum or hyper-dimensional environment, then once this singular vision is penetrated, it can manifest, provided there is enough energy. Also that non-anticipation is applied.
So, apply this to beliefs and human modes of behaviour that restrict such a process. For example, “purifying are own “fields” of emotions, intellect and physical body is a requirement to achieve more refined states that make us more permeable to different states of consciousness. Conservation of energy gives us the required amplitude. A network creates the required “boot strapping” that lifts not just the network but all of reality into this new “branch.” Yet the window of opportunity is finite in a particular cycle, as are all the opportunities that are presented to us each and every day. Needless to say these requirements are not easy, which is perhaps why we are repeating the collective lessons we are seeing today.”
This then connects – among other things - to the possibility of the “Many Worlds” theory that talks about “branchings of the Universe at specific “nodal” points of change or bifurcation. These changes depend on a choice event – a choice among many possible futures. So, it may be that the creation of “branch” (Tree of life?) into another reality may be possible. The future is undecided after all. We make it according to the purity of our intent, awareness and whether or not we are as close as we can get to an objective reality of the situation. i.e. Know thyself. And then share it!
Change can come provided it is a network of folks that are what can be called “co-linear” – different in all kinds of ways, without restrictive beliefs and egotistical demands that however make up the process of the work that demands a reduction in such limitations, and are committed to principles and goals that MAY result in a branching of reality according to the dynamics of a nonlinear, complex, self-referencing and self-organizing cosmos.
Remember what E N said:
“Maybe cause and effect are a little like time and space, actually the same thing but only seperated by our measurements of them.”
These could be said to be “causal loops.” They mean the same thing as the "Time Loops" that Floppy mentioned. They can be described as going into the future and ending up where you started at the original time and place. These loops keep these repetitive patterns based around subjectivity occurring again and again until we see the lesson or learning directive and break the cycle which of course requires effort to SEE.
Which brings us back to earthling’s comment:
“All of what we "see" is an interpretation, as opposed to an objective observation. She sees the kind of things she expects, and I see other things. To her, the stuff that I see plainly does not exist.”
Exactly. The power of emotional thought based around beliefs and assumptions linked as it is to particular visual areas in the brain, literally changes reality according to our wishes. BUT if it is not aligned to an objective observation – as far as it is possible – the greater the resulting chaos.
In other words, we are dealing with a set of possible futures and at the moment, a probable future that is being foisted on us and the world via those that choose to ignore reality and by those that want to comsume the world for their own ends. They have set it up for precisely that end through many factional parties with different desires and wishes but which amount to the same thing - control.
So, the only way of determining which future we experience is to choose based on accurate knowledge of the present right?
Colette mentioned the “unexpected” which is a crucial part of the process. Innocence and the unexpected must be maintained for the “tunneling” and branching to occur. Non-anticipation must be observed – not easy. So the process is just as important as the result which cannot be imagined only embodied through the “doing.” A bit paradoxical perhaps. It sounds rather far-fetched I’ll admit, but it may just be a simple set of equations, the application of which depends on us.
E N mentioned: “I believe that conscious thoughts can effect our DNA and literally program it for future generations, based on our observations and perceived future needs.”
Indeed. Consider that our so called “junk DNA is in fact the hard drive of our system with enormous amounts of creative potential packaged ready to be utilized – via learning and an accumulation of energy. Why is it that from the Amazonian Indians to the Mayan civilization and the Chinese creators of the I Ching the DNA is known and reflected time and time again? Perhaps DNA is the conduit between different densities of thought? Could it be the electrical conductor that transcends notions of linear time?
Which brings us back to the notion of critical mass and the spiritual warrior.
The path of the spirit is a bloody battle as well as a science hence the allusions to fighting so often seen in world traditions and so often subverted. Even though these are primarily simple understandings the road to such understandings can be as complex as the human organism.
What defines the parameters of your being? Perhaps a critical mass achieved at various junctures in our lives. Or we avoid those opportunities. Very often learning comes from pain and suffering. Gathering knowledge without prejudice will lead to humility, which leads to self-recognition. And when you have self-recognition it enables us to navigate our way through the emotions and illusions that distract us and blind us, ( if we remember earthlings comments in this regard).
This is what gives us our purity of WILL to do. So, once there are enough people that are prepared to have the courage to address their own inner world as well as the mirror that is the external world and our dedicated to that end for humanity as a whole, then perhaps a sufficinent critical mass can be reached. This will then create more of a balanced reality. NOT utopia but a singular alternative to the appalling suffering we se before us that primarily due to the refusal to see manipulation and lies; the deliberate ignoring of an objective reality is ignorance.
So, maybe we can see that it will not be enough just to think of great buckets of love and light while seeing, hearing and thinking only good and positive thoughts, which will eventually reach a critical mass and reach all of humanity and all of the negative things are going to be transformed into positive things. I don't think it works like that.
This is part of the problem. It assumes that darkness is open to transformation when in fact “shadow defines light” and must exist in quantities sufficient for balance to reach a creative tension. It also presumes that some want to to be flooded with love and light when they may not. There path of experience may be to attune to matter - to the darker expression of life. Our wishes then may amount ot infringing their free-will to be as they are.
But there can be a measure of transformation via what amounts to an Objective Love based around seeing ourselves as we are and as this world really is. Then we may Know and Do.