Some Jews feel wartime pope was a nazi, a mere puppet of Hitler.

If this black legend is proven, the catholic church will have another class action suit, including with the sexual assault victims.
Vatican defends wartime pope
Vatican City– The Vatican today rejected charges that wartime Pope Pius XII turned a blind eye to the Holocaust as a "black legend" not backed up by history.

An editorial in the Vatican newspaper defended Pius two days after the first Jew to address a Church synod told the gathering Jews "cannot forgive and forget" Pius's silence.

The Osservatore Romano called him a "man of peace" who tried to do his best during one of the most violent periods in history. The editorial was published on the eve of commemorations to mark the 50th anniversary of his death.

"He confronted the wartime tragedy like no leader of his time did. Even when faced with the monstrous persecution of the Jews (he worked) in a suffered silence which is understandable and whose aim was an efficient endeavour of charity and undeniable help," the newspaper said.

Some Jews maintain Pius did not do enough. The Vatican says he worked quietly behind the scenes to help Jews because more direct intervention would have worsened the situation.

The newspaper denounced what it called "black legend about a pope who was insensitive to the Shoah (the Hebrew word for the Holocaust) or even pro-Nazi."

It rejected such accusations, saying they were "above all inconsistent from the historical point of view, apart from being denigrating."

CATHOLIC-JEWISH RELATIONS

On Monday, the chief rabbi of Haifa, Israel, Shear-Yashuv Cohen, told Pope Benedict during a synod that Jews "cannot forgive and forget" that some major religious leaders during World War Two did not speak out against the Holocaust. This was a clear reference to Pius, who reigned from 1939 to 1958.

The papacy of Pius is one of the most difficult issues in Catholic-Jewish relations. Many books have been written about it, with most defenders saying the situation would have been worse for Jews if he had spoken out forcefully against Hitler.

Last month, Benedict said Pius "spared no effort" to help Jews.

He spoke to the U.S.-based Pave the Way Foundation, a mixed Jewish-Catholic group which prepared a 200-page compilation of documents, diplomatic cables and newspaper clippings from the period – some of them previously unpublished – showing Pius did much to help Jews during the war.

Urged by historians to open all its archives from World War Two, the Vatican says some are closed for organisational reasons but most of the significant documentation regarding Pius is open to scholars.

Last year, the Vatican's saint-making department voted in favour of a decree recognising Pius's "heroic virtues," a major hurdle in a long process toward possible sainthood that began in 1967. But Pope Benedict has so far not approved the decree.

Some Jewish groups say the Vatican should freeze the process of beatification. Others say it is an internal Church matter.

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cnnek's picture
Member since:
28 June 2006
Last activity:
43 min 39 sec

Paul,

I've come across these questions about Pius XII before. I think that Pius XII was trying to do what he could for the Jews, and preserve the Roman Catholic Church at the same time. On the one hand, one of his primary functions as Pope was to preserve the Church and the Faith. And, in the Roman Catholic mind, there is not a clear distinction between the Church and the Faith. On the other hand, he had Vatican passports issued to Jews through his Bishops, one of whom was the future Pope John XXIII, and Priests, and he entered into negotiations with groups that could help smuggle Jews out of Europe through his Bishops, one of whom wqas the future Pope John XXIII, and Priests. He, himself, never left the Vatican during the war, and he was very secretive about what he was doing. So, in my opinion, it can't be argued that he didn't do anything to help the Jews. But, it could be argued that he didn't do everything that he could have done to help the Jews; because, in his mind, it was of primary importance to protect the Roman Catholic Church and Faith.

For more insight into this topic, read a good biography of Pope John XXIII; because, he was an influential Arch-Bishop who was very involved in the Church's effort to protect the Jews.

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}

red pill junkie's picture
Member since:
12 April 2007
Last activity:
12 hours 54 min

By the time of this pope, the Church didn't have te tenth of the power it once possessed. And that power has been steadily decreasing over the years.

And we have to consider that apart from being an echesiastical authority, he wasalso a Head of State, and a State bordering a fascist power (Italy).

So, yes, maybe he could have done more, but like cnnek points out, he might have thought his primary concern was the survival of the Church. And their survival of what little power they still have, thus rendering their words and actions empty; just like Pope Benedict's recent words decrying the fallacy of materialism—this coming from a man living in a golden palace!

-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

Kathrinn's picture
Member since:
10 August 2004
Last activity:
18 weeks 37 min

Your last statement, Red, reminds me of the last pope's statement a few years ago (can't remember his name) who said that God's name should never be used to condone murder and violence. I wondered if he had ever studied the history of his own church.

Regards, Kathrinn

cnnek's picture
Member since:
28 June 2006
Last activity:
43 min 39 sec

Kathrinn,

I'm not one of the people that likes Pope John Paul II. I think that he was a hypocrit. But, he was a hypocrit that knew the history of the Roman Catholic Church. And, he did not condone the murder and violence in its past either. That you have got to give him. Remember, he was in Poland when the Nazi's over ran the country in 1939, and he witnessed what they did. It had a very strong effect on his attitude toward murder and violence.

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}

Carol_Noble's picture
Member since:
3 June 2008
Last activity:
1 year 23 weeks

Personally, I have found Christianity, whatever creed/group within this religion, to be rather contradictory to the words that Jesus is purported to have said.

Violence is a non-subject as far as the biblical Jesus is concerned, yet Christianity has throughout its history practiced and endorsed violence of all kinds.

The Catholic Church during WWII continued that policy. Some people within it were very saintly, but others had attitudes worthy of the devil.

I know that whatever the truth, the Catholic Church will ensure that its followers accept whatever the establishment desires.

Carol A Noble

cnnek's picture
Member since:
28 June 2006
Last activity:
43 min 39 sec

Carol,

Besides, if you want to read the New Testament, you will find that it's contradictory also. There are a number of lines of thought that run through the New Testament, and the same is true of the Old Testament.

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}

Carol_Noble's picture
Member since:
3 June 2008
Last activity:
1 year 23 weeks

There have been various versions of the bible, both old and new testaments, and they have had some information taken out, and other information put in over the many centuries that Christianity has existed.

http://bible.zoxt.net/hex/hex.htm this is a website which covered the English Hexapla. It is six different versions of the New Testament. The earliest is the Wycliffe Bible, the last is the King James. I found that some of the words that Wycliffe used were slightly different in emphasis to that of the later versions. Wycliffe was a renegade Christian in many ways, and was one who encouraged the new testament to be in English not Latin.

Look at this site, and you will see what I mean.

The bible generally is very contradictory but then people have been putting their own ideas as to what religion is all about over millennia and I don't think that circumstance will change much today.

Carol A Noble

cnnek's picture
Member since:
28 June 2006
Last activity:
43 min 39 sec

Carol,

The authors, especially in the New Testament, never thought that their books and letters, most of them are letters [Epistles], would ever be included in one book. To them, the Hebrew Cannon of scripture was the main Cannon of scripture. They had no idea that they were writing the New Testament. And, you are right the whole Bible, especially the New Testament, has been edited by editors. The technical terminology for this is that it has been redacted by redactors.

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}

red pill junkie's picture
Member since:
12 April 2007
Last activity:
12 hours 54 min

And let's not forget apocryphal, the books that didn't make the cut to the New Testament, for having ideas too... divergent, to the new canon being established by the new Church.

BTW, I'm of the opinion that the Christ didn't come here to found a new church in the first place ;-)

-----
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me...
It's all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

Red Pill Junkie

cnnek's picture
Member since:
28 June 2006
Last activity:
43 min 39 sec

Red Pill,

Some of the apocryphal books are in other New Testament Cannons, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc.. The cannon that we have been refering to is generally refered to as the Western Christian Cannon of Scripture.

What do you think?

cnnek

{You Can Teach People How To Think Or What To Think; But, You Can't Do Both! It Is Better To Teach People How To Think!!!}