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UFO Hacker Loses Last Ditch Appeal

Three years on from his initial hearing, Gary ‘UFO Hacker’ McKinnon has lost his last-ditch appeal to the British High Court to avoid extradition to the United States:

The high court decided against overturning a refusal by Keir Starmer, the director of public prosecutions, to sanction a trial of the 43-year-old “UFO eccentric” in Britain. Alan Johnson, the home secretary, is unlikely to halt the extradition. He has said a thorough assessment was carried out to ensure that the necessary extradition criteria were met.

Personally, I don’t think this “60 years in high security prison” thing is a chance of happening, but I guess it’s playing well in the media. Looks like we’ll be finding out his real penalty soon enough though.

Previously on TDG:

Editor
  1. Just a common theirf
    How do we condone hacking into someone’s computer? Anyone’s? It doesn’t matter who it belonged to or what was supposedly to be found. It is equivalent to breaking into someone’s home or shop. This hacker was a burglar who has now painted himself as some moral crusader. What rubbish.

    “The difference between ‘involvement’ and ‘commitment’ is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was ‘involved’ – the pig was ‘committed’.”

    1. Disproportionate punishment
      I’m not too sure what a “theirf” is, but I’m absolutely certain of one thing — McKinnon is guilty of hacking, but he sure as hell doesn’t deserve the punishment the US is gunning for. It is grossly disproportionate to the crime. Particularly when you compare it to what former vice-president Dick Cheney got away with.

      ~ * ~

      @levitatingcat

      1. Dick Cheney
        And pray tell, what might be the “crimes” you consider former VP Cheney to have committed? Nothing comes to my mind regarding anything illegal that might be pinned upon him.

        Now, Obama, that’s a different matter. He’s a typical Chicago street thug, all dressed up and proper-looking, but still doing his damndest to destroy the US economy and plunge us into the black hole of socialism.

        I’ll Take Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush any day over the incompetent, ignorant, and criminally naive gutter trash we have in office at the present time.

        Respects,
        Gwedd

        1. And then Gwedd you totally lost me…
          When did the subject change? Is anyone home, or do you just parrot “Talk Radio/Faux News” talking points, injecting it along the way during conversation? No matter the subject! Or is it turrets?

          1. constant thing
            The changing of subject is a constant in these threads, not just on TDG. It’s natural.

            Back to the main topic, we can’t the guy just get a trial and, if guilty, serve a little breaking-and-entering term in a low security prison, without computer access. Someone who robs a store at gunpoint doesn’t get a gun in jail either. Give him 2 years and be done with it.

            Then, if you are the DoD or some other organization – hire professionals for security. Don’t rely on clueless lazy people to enforce critical security. Relying on amateurs is too expensive.

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

      2. punishment…
        Were it in my power, and Mr. McKinnon is found guilty, I’d make a huge plinth of used computer parts and nail him to it, leaving his crucified carcass on public display until it rotted off the plinth and dissolved into the earth.

        But’s that just me. I have no qualms with state-sponsored hackers. Every nation does it, and it’s a part of the soft-war game that everyone plays.

        McKinnin, however, isn’t working for any government. He’s a common thief, gutter trash, and regardless of what he might be suffering with, deserves whatever the courts dish out. He played the game, and he lost. I’m not losing any sleep over it, and neither should anyone else.

        Respects,
        Gwedd

        1. Lemme get this straight:
          So lemme get this straight:

          You have no qualms with the North Korean hackers that receive direct orders from Kim Jong-Il, and effectively try to cause havok on the US’ cybernetic defense system on a regular basis—The kind of attacks that prompted Obama to appoint a cyber-security Tsar.

          …But you do want to punish Gary, a lone dumb hacker with no foreign power to back him up, with a Torquemada-style public execution.

          —–
          It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
          It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

          Red Pill Junkie

          1. Yup
            I think you have it nailed… as it were.

            I hope that the US Cyber Command can backtrack to the NORK facilities and turn them into so much rubble. Ot not. that’s not my call, but that game is played at high levels and with many, many permutations.

            McKinnon is a twit, a wannabe, and needs to be slapped down silly.

            Respects,
            Gwedd

        2. hacks
          [quote=Gwedd]Were it in my power, and Mr. McKinnon is found guilty, I’d make a huge plinth of used computer parts and nail him to it, leaving his crucified carcass on public display until it rotted off the plinth and dissolved into the earth.[/quote]

          Then thank the cosmos it’s not in your power.

          ~ * ~

          @levitatingcat

        3. Gwedd’s thinking clearly…
          [quote=Gwedd]Were it in my power, and Mr. McKinnon is found guilty, I’d make a huge plinth of used computer parts and nail him to it, leaving his crucified carcass on public display until it rotted off the plinth and dissolved into the earth.

          McKinnin, however, isn’t working for any government. He’s a common thief, gutter trash, and regardless of what he might be suffering with, deserves whatever the courts dish out. He played the game, and he lost. I’m not losing any sleep over it, and neither should anyone else.

          Respects,
          Gwedd[/quote]

          I see attempts are being made to portray “McKinnin” as a “fun-lovin, teenage prankster” and government security employees as; slow thinking, mouth breathers who let someone get over on them because they were too lazy to do their jobs.

          This is reality as Hollywood portrays it. Hackers don’t sit down at computer terminals and “magically” come up with passwords and login procedures in two seconds flat (except in Hollywood movies). They force cracks into operating systems by overloading algorithms and procedures, and short-circuiting OS procedures. This isn’t harmless. It corrupts OS’s, causes the loss and corruption of data storage, and unrecoverable OS damage. Then OS’s have to be reloaded or whole systems wiped to delete the mangled code that resulted from attacks on the system.

          This costs time, money, and impacts careers.

          I worked as UNIX system administrator (fill in) for about a year for a Department of Interior agency, and have had my own personal computer for 12 years (and have lost thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars dealing with Cyber Thieves/Spies/Cyber Trash). You bleeding hearts who know of Cyber Thieves from “war games” and “Swordfish”: time to wake up and stop using Hollywood to define your reality.

          I suggest that McKinnin, the banking executives that brought the US economy down, those recently arrested corrupt New Jersey politicians, and the la cosa nostra, all get taken to a field, doused with gasoline, torched. Good riddance!

      3. What the **** does it matter what Cheney got away with people!
        I cannot believe the comments about what those arseholes Bush & CO got away with which are meant to lessen and condone the guilt of another arsehole who busted into someone else’s computer. People hold your head in shame! You are no better than the arseholes you are condemning!

        Punishment fitting the crime? What do you expect hacking into government computers? Oh yeah, its the US military and Bush & Co were arseholes and its about looking for UFO cover-ups so that’s ok then. NOT OK. Again YOU are no better than the arseholes you condemn.

        Say the corner shop owner is a right arsehole, he cheats his customers and makes rude comments to girls. So its ok to steal from him or break his windows, right? People, this is what you are saying.

        If you want a fight why not take it to the RIAA why don’t you? So how many millions of dollars was that women fined for 24 songs shared? So how come you and Sting & Co aren’t out there fighting for her waving banners about punishment fitting the crime? My guess is if it didn’t involve UFOs, Bush and the evil US military then who cares, right? You hypocrites!

        THINK!

    2. Disproportionate punishment
      I don’t think the issue is that we condone his actions.

      Rather the issue is about the trial itself. I think there are several issues which need to be considered here.

      1) If tried in the US he will be tried in a different country to which he committed the crime.
      2) There seems to me to be a danger that if he is tried in the US the courts might over react with an unfairly heavy penalty in an attempt to cover up the embarrassment which is felt by having their computers so easily hacked.
      3) There are issues with the extradition treaty which means there are different rules for US citizens being sent to the UK and UK citizens being sent to the US
      4) His medical conditions should also be considered in a fair light.
      5) There is also a danger that the US could treat him as a terrorist. He is not a terrorist by any stretch of the argument, he is a hacker.

      This is not to say that he should not be tried and possibly punished for his actions, but it must be fair and appropriate. No form of justice should be unbalanced in order to fit a political agenda

      Cheers Paolo

      1. US legal system
        the fear

        There seems to me to be a danger that if he is tried in the US the courts might over react with an unfairly heavy penalty in an attempt to cover up the embarrassment which is felt by having their computers so easily hacked.

        is pretty unfounded. The US legal system is as independent of the government’s wishes than in most other countries these days. They judge by what the current laws and society standards are, not by what the president wants.

        —-
        No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

  2. Just a common theirf (er..low-life trash)
    I’m with “Redoubt”:”…Hacking into someone’s computer… is equivalent to breaking into someone’s home or shop. Almost as soon as I purchased my first computer I had to start defending it against malware, viruses, and advertisement hijacking. I had to spend hours and days cleaning and repairing my computer, and was denied the use of my computer while I was busy repairing it.

    What is the appropriate compensation for my lost time and money due to these cyber crooks? Murder is the theft of ALL of someone’s “time”. And can be punished by the death penalty or life in prison. What if the crook only stole a few weeks of your life, or months? (time+money+lost use of the computer+frustration). Would a few years caged like an animal with other animals pay the debt? The uncharitable side of my personality would like to beat on these cyber thieves until the blood runs out of their orifices, but mercifully, I am saved from my own anger-driven urges by our court system.

    Hackers often destroy parts of computer systems, as well as the careers of SysAdmins, as they break into logical systems. Bleeding hearts should save their pity/compassion for the hard working professionals whose careers get ground up in the gears of the infernal circumstances that are set into motion by trash like this!

    Did he chuckle/snigger to himself at home while he was breaking into other’s computer systems, and affecting the lives of the people maintaining these computer systems? Well, he can chuckle to himself for a couple of decades, in a stress-filled prison environment, punching out license plates.

    1. “Breaking in”
      [quote]I’m with “Redoubt”:”…Hacking into someone’s computer… is equivalent to breaking into someone’s home or shop.[/quote]

      If you’ve followed Gary’s story closely, you would have changed your analogy to “leaving your home or shop’s front door wide open, putting a ‘come on in!’ sign in front”, and then finding out that indeed someone entered your property.

      But wouldn’t you have had a responsibility in the matter? Shouldn’t you be more angry with yourself than with the trespasser?

      And in Gary’s case, he entered your home without taking anything with him, or disturbing any of your furniture. He just snooped around a bit, and left you a note saying you should leave the door closed next time.

      Surely he deserves the death penalty for that!

      —–
      It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
      It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

      Red Pill Junkie

      1. Nope…

        I have followed it, an that’s a piss-poor analogy. In fact, it’s pretty much a lie.

        But that’s neither here nor there.

        Hiding an unlocked door is not an excuse to enter and poke around. That sort of attitude would condone having sex with some bird who has passed out on the couch.

        McKinnon should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I doubt that it will be anything approaching what his nerdlican apologists are going on about, but still and all, it should be a good stint in a serious lockup.

        Respects,
        Gwedd

    2. Aspergers
      Let’s not forget that Gary has been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. Sufferers are often misdiagnosed as malicious troublemakers. Symptoms include:

      * Obsessing on one or two specific, narrow subjects
      * Lack of common sense
      * Clumsiness
      * Inappropriate reciprocal interaction

      Gary’s ‘crime’ demonstrated all of these traits. I hope the American justice system will take this into account.

      ——

      I don’t believe in belief!

      Perceval

        1. Don’t tread on me
          [quote=Perceval]Let me guess. Redoubt, Gwedd and 1soloadventurer are US citizens. Am I right?
          [/quote]

          Still buzzing from July 4th too…
          ;P

          Kind regards,
          Greg
          ——————————————-
          You monkeys only think you’re running things
          @DailyGrail

        2. Hmmmmmm
          Why would that make any difference? It seems not to matter what sort of nationality one has when it comes to criticizing the United States. Why is it that every tom’s hairy dick sees fit to cast stones upon the USA, but when someone comes to that country’s defense, they are pounced upon as if they carried the plague?

          Respects,
          Gwedd

          1. Relativity
            [quote=Gwedd]they are pounced upon as if they carried the plague?[/quote]

            Err, not sure about that analogy. I wouldn’t be pouncing on anyone with the plague. 😉

            You think it’s bad being American in this pinko haven. You should try being an Australian in a British pub when we’re getting whacked in the cricket. Suck it up! ;P

            Kind regards,
            Greg
            ——————————————-
            You monkeys only think you’re running things
            @DailyGrail

          2. Well, yeah…
            My family still has a station in the Tweeds Head area.

            And I still revert to speaking Strine when I’m about the folks from Oz.

            Bot much ado about anything, but thought I’d throw that out there…..

            Respects,
            Gwedd

          3. Ahem
            [quote=Gwedd]Why is it that every tom’s hairy dick sees fit to cast stones…[/quote]

            Perhaps you should put yours away, Gwedd, and tone down the language please.

            Thanks.

            ~ * ~

            @levitatingcat

          4. Right, well…
            Right, well…

            Every Tom, Dick & Harry then… I could have sworn that a sense of humour was a standard trait about these parts…..

            Respects,
            Gwedd

          5. Comedy gold
            [quote=Gwedd]I could have sworn that a sense of humour was a standard trait about these parts…[/quote]

            Greg has the humour covered, I’m gunning for the prudish cranky old guy position.

            ~ * ~

            @levitatingcat

          6. Don’t take it back!
            I’m still enjoying the erectile/projectile imagery you conjured up!

            ——

            I don’t believe in belief!

            Perceval

          7. Perhaps I should qualify
            Perhaps I should qualify that prediction.

            I’ve noted that Americans in general hold a more hawkish attitude to the McKinnon case. Perhaps one factor in this is that it touches a nerve by exposing US security weaknesses post 9/11.

            ——

            I don’t believe in belief!

            Perceval

          8. Oh…
            Oh I see, its the “Americans in general” statement. So how did you come up with this one – from comments, the news?

            I wonder, have you lived in the US for years and years and moved around a bit while you were there so you CAN make the statement “Americans in general”?

            I can say “Chinese in general” as I live in China and for years and years and I’ve been around a bit.

            However I CANNOT say “Brits in General” because I haven’t lived there for years and years…

            Get the idea? 😉

          9. Generalisation based on experience, yes.
            OK, preface my previous comment with ‘In my limited experience of coverage/comments on the web…’

            ——

            I don’t believe in belief!

            Perceval

          10. Prediction based on generalisation.
            Yes, I made a generalisation. Then I used it to make a prediction. Was I wrong?

            ——

            I don’t believe in belief!

            Perceval

        3. That makes sense…
          I see where you are going with this.

          So…

          A British airways jet lands at the airport and even after the engines are off you still hear the whining…and they have bad teeth, oh yea, and the women have big noses too.

          ALL Australian blokes are all beer drunk yabbos in their Torana

          Shall I go on Perceval?

          1. Completely wrong
            [quote=tihz_ho]ALL Australian blokes are all beer drunk yabbos in their Torana
            [/quote]

            Completely wrong on that one. The blokes in the north of Australia have Landcruisers, not Toranas.
            ;P

            Kind regards,
            Greg
            ——————————————-
            You monkeys only think you’re running things
            @DailyGrail

          2. I Stand Corrected
            Thanks Greg, I stand corrected…and “Forex” is not real beer, it was at one time but…

            The problem of stating things “in general”.

            Cheers 😀

          3. for tihz ho
            I guess you know why Queenslanders called their beer “XXXX” – it’s because they are reputed to be unable to spell “beer”!!! (Or maybe too drunk!).

            Regards, Kathrinn

          4. No, that’s where you’re going with this
            [quote=tihz_ho]I see where you are going with this.[/quote]
            As I said, it was a generalisation, not a blanket statement. But you’re right about the whining :-/ (I think I AM qualified to make that statement!)

            Big noses? Big noses?? Come outside and say that!

            ——

            I don’t believe in belief!

            Perceval

          5. HAHA!
            [quote]Big noses? Big noses?? Come outside and say that![/quote]

            “Listen I’m only telling the truth. You have got a very big nose.” – Stan

            HAHA 😀

      1. Sounds like Dubya
        [quote=Perceval] Symptoms include:

        * Obsessing on one or two specific, narrow subjects
        * Lack of common sense
        * Clumsiness
        * Inappropriate reciprocal interaction

        [/quote]

        Would you then cut ol’George some slack?

      2. So what?
        If Gary killed someone then that’s ok he’s got a “condition”.

        THINK for a second!

        How many people behind bars have a “condition” of some sort? Damn, LOTS of them, maybe MOST of them, that’s why they are there! So why not let them all out?

        Sheeesh!!

        1. Who’s post are you reading?
          1. He didn’t kill anyone. Irrelevant.

          2. Did I say he shouldn’t be punished? No.

          ——

          I don’t believe in belief!

          Perceval

        2. Correctional or punitive?
          [quote]How many people behind bars have a “condition” of some sort? Damn, LOTS of them, maybe MOST of them, that’s why they are there! So why not let them all out?[/quote]

          It’s interesting to see how in the western society there was this idea of putting people behind bars with the intention of reforming their conduct so that they would later be reinstated as productive members of society.

          But, in recent years this idea has reverted. Now the main intention is to punish the criminal, for the punishment itself.

          That may be one of the reasons why the US is the industrialized nation with most incarcerated citizens in the world. Quite an accomplishment.

          I think it has been stated several times that most of the people defending McKinnon are NOT saying he shouldn’t receive a punishment for what he did. But that seems to be omitted by the ones who want to witness his public execution.

          —–
          It’s not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me…
          It’s all the rabbit SH*T you stumble over on your way down!!!

          Red Pill Junkie

          1. incarceration
            There is another reason to lock people up, which is not mentioned in our politically correct world.

            It is simply this: there are some people so dangerous that we don’t want them to be around innocent civilians. In the old days, these types received the death penalty. Now they are locked up for a long time.

            Except in Europe, where someone who molests and murders little children receives a shorter sentence than someone guilty of large scale tax evasion. You see, the murderer can be reformed (ha!) while the tax evader cannot.

            I’m not sure about the number of people incarcerated being the highest in the US. For one thing, this has to be expressed as a percentage of the population. There probably are no reliable numbers from China, and they do execute quite a few criminals. For comparative purposes of the legal, it makes sense to count the executees as being incarcerated.

            Getting back to this particular case, there is a lot of noise about the terrible punishment this guy will face in the US. This is while we have no idea whether he will be convicted of anything. Folks, this noise is based on prejudice.

            —-
            No amount of cursing at the round earth will make it flat.

  3. Hypocrisy
    Another question to ask is whether the United States employees people to hack computers. Is this activity any less illegal because the a government has people do it? We all know there are extensive cyberwarrior units in the military, and the NSA and other agencies have vast resources dedicated to hacking computer systems worldwide. In another scenario they would have PAID this poor guy to do what he did. Instead, they are simply embarrassed.

    If the government were lily white pure and didn’t engage in the exact same thing, I’d say sure, make an example. But the hypocrisy of the situation takes my judgment elsewhere.

    Alternoid
    There has to be a better alternative to the human mind

  4. Being played
    For my part, I’m having less and less sympathy for McKinnon. But that mainly comes down to feeling like I’m being played by his camp – the “60 years in Gitmo/Supermax” angle which is not a possibility, “the Aspergers made me do it” angle, and even I think to a degree “I just wanted the UFO secrets”. His message left on one computer about US foreign policy and the words “I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels” suggests more vandalism in response to a dislike of US policies.

    On the other hand, I think it’s necessary to understand how easy it can be to do this sort of thing. A few ‘scripts’, and bad security (if as McKinnon says, many passwords were left on the default, that’s almost criminally negligent), and any fool can get in there. If I leave a hammer in the hallway with a 3 year old boy toddling around the house, I’m going to take a fair bit of that responsibility myself.

    I really don’t see this as an extradition case, I think it could have been handled ‘in-house’ in the UK. $700,000 is (a) a drop in the bucket when it comes to government expenses and (b) inflated anyhow, with man-hours included to fix holes that should have been fixed before McKinnon found them.

    Though I’m not really on the side of “save Gary!” campaigns, I do think the man has probably suffered enough in comparison to the crime – and is really just being used as a showcase to ward off other would-be script-kiddies. Will be interesting to see details of the case come out when he goes on trial in the US (although there’s the possibility that the prosecutors may argue for closed evidence due to military secrecy?).

    Kind regards,
    Greg
    ——————————————-
    You monkeys only think you’re running things
    @DailyGrail

    1. The hacks are in the US legal system
      There are hackers who actually did damage to their prospective cyber victims, but never served prison sentences. Instead, they were hired as well-paid IT security experts. The only difference between them and McKinnon is that McKinnon got caught post-9/11.

      I’ve never said McKinnon shouldn’t receive any punishment for what he did. All I’ve asked for is that he be given a fair trial, and the punishment be proportionate to the crime. But proportion means different things to a commie pinkie leftie NeoLiberal scumbag like me, and our fair, balanced, righteous counterparts on the Right. 😉

      Jon Ronson sums it up for me.

      ~ * ~

      @levitatingcat

  5. The injuustice that exists all over the world.
    What bothers me is that the US had such an uneven treaty with the UK which the UK politicians stupidly agreed to. Also that treaty is being classed as above our human rights legislation which allows people like Abu Hamza to stay in this country even though they have been found guilty of terrorist activities elsewhere.

    I also object to laws made AFTER he committed the offence being used against him now.

    As for the treatment he would receive in the US, it has already been stated by someone who is American, and has worked in prisons in the US, that the US treats its mentally disabled prisoners badly, and those held in privately owned prisons are treated even worse than those in the state owned ones. I don’t know how accurate these statements are but they have been presented to the UK courts, and still the UK politicians are determined to extradite McKinnon.

    The rights and wrongs of his crime are irrelevant it seems.

    It is clear that the US legal system does not act in the same way as that in the UK,.

    Despite having many American friends I still consider the UK political/legal system as bullying, arrogant, immature, and dangerous to the rest of the world.

    There are a lot of people in the world of many different nationalities who seem incapable of seeing that their leaders may actually be damaging the reputation of the US in it search for world dominance.

    The leaders in the UK have over the past four decades changed their attitudes out of all recognition of justice, caring for others, and putting the interest of the people first. Other countries, including the US, have done exactly the same.

    As for countries employing hackers, I agree tbis happens, but the hypocricy that has been made regarding the McKinnon case is completely our of proporttion.

    I would also add I don’t agree with plea bargening, especially the US version, as people who are rich but have committed crimes have got away with crimes, paying a Fine instead of serving time in prison. The UK has tried something similar here, getting people to claim they are guilty in the hope of a lesser sentence.

    If people who are found guilty want parole they must not say they were innocent, otherwise it is refused. They must admit guilt that may not be true. Far too many cases in the UK have been later proved to have had a wrong guilty verdict.

    Justice in the world as a whole has disappeared. The McKinnon case is just one more incompetent, inappropriate case of injustice.
    Carol A Noble

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